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Supercharging

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Hi Al,

Let's start,

The unit I have is the original VIS, Vintage Induction Systems kit. This was manufactured by Peter Boutcher in NH in the middle to the end of the 1990's. I have mine since about 1998. It was originally tested on Peters TVR (TR powered) and another guy , Nick Formica in Conn. They were co developers with Peter eventually manufacturing the units. Peters hope was to sell the design to one of the big three British parts houses but that never happened. The kit lives on from a machinist in the Bronx N.Y. names Sal Vespertino https://www.triumphowners.com/381 . He has pretty much duplicated the VIS kit. This is the kit that Bennet French sells.

I am using a narrow band 02 with a K&N AF monitor. I have a wired port & plug it in for tuning, other wise it's left home. My current needle is a UVP. The MSD boost retard is probably more necessary with boost over 10lbs but it's cheap insurance. I keep it set to take out 1/2 deg of advance for every lb of boost. I still use points but the MSD only needs them as a trigger. The dwell is now controlled by the MSD AL6. Timing total advance is set to 34 deg mechanical with 15 deg dynamic. I have this thing about getting stuck on the road. The MSD can convert back to points by switching 2 wires, I still use the original mechanical fuel pump & the original fan with an electric back-up for hot summer traffic jams.

The compression is stock 8.5:1 using a Felpro head gasket not copper. The reason I set all the tollerances tight is because a boosted motor will increase compression rapidly looking for the weakest point in the motor. Past oil rings, valve guides increasing the effects of blow by. My first engine suffered from that, this one is perfect after 25-30 thousand miles of abuse. At sea level 8.5:1 compression turns to aprox 13.70:1 using 9lbs of boost. The beauty of this system is that it's momentary, power on demand. I run stock compression around town. Cast iron block & head handle it well.

Cam bearing are not a must. I did it because my oil pressure was low in the original block & the first place to loose it is in the cam bores. I use Mobil 1 15-30 & oil pressure above spec.

Performance needless to say is way better. Remember, we are still talk'n 152cu straight 6. Relaxed 0-60 5.5, 1/4 mile (no hole shot 14.5. I'm sure more agressive driving would yield lower numbers but it's not a dragster (not to say I'd turn down a stop light chalange) . The goal here was to modernize the performace while still staying reliable. The most noticable change is the torque. I'll take torque over HP any day. The car has the ability to pull hard from any rpm in any gear.

Feel free to post questions or call or PM. I love this stuff.

cell 516-250-9345

I
 
Mitch:
Thanks a bunch. Great stuff. This info is just what I need to get started. What it does is assist me in defining targets and a landing zone. Thanks for the phone number. BTY, I know Dr. Formica. His car is about 20 mins away. I think he is building something new.

Thanks again and you will be hearing from me. Check your PM periodically.
 
Trick6 said:
I will attempt to respond to you all.
1st Alan:
Great reference to the Whipple people. It sounds like they maybe the best at what they do. You must have talked to them so how much for that 140ax number.
Click to expand...

About $1650 bare. Around $300 for a snout.
That's from memory, but it's close enough for budgeting.
 
Alan,
Just went through the Whipple site, very nice stuff. The screw design seems to make the difference from the Roots style. Still a little more money than the M62 but not enough to say no. I wonder what the actual gains would be considering boost levels below 9 lbs. I would also like to know it's compatibility with wet system. It's efficiency rating is excellent.

Keep in mind using the Whipple would require fabricating a new manifold.
 
I just love sitting back and watching someone else spend money besides me...... :winner1:
 
I spoke with Bennett "The French Connection" French of Standard Performance. He was quite engaging. He said that the GP2 cam is OK, since I have it, but anything more is not desirable. There are cam profiles for superchargers but he said that when the boost kicks in a lot of the fine details are not measurable. Yes you can have the best of everything, ie, SC cam, ported and polished heads, three angled valve jobs, roller rockers, etc., but you might not feel it in the seat of your pants, just a lighter wallet. He liked the 7.5 CR head but nothing more than 8.5 CR. He likes the smaller 1.75" SU carb over the 2" one because it is smoother throughout the rpm range. He runs the SC at 5.5 lbs. of boost and has produced 130 HP and 168 ft.lbs. of torque at the rear wheels. Whew, that is a$$ kicking power without stepping on it.

He did say that there is one thing that his kit does not include that he recommends and that is the MSD Ignition Retard unit for boost and ignition management. Without this or a form of this, the ignition will have to be set at a lower maximum total timing which will render the motor sluggish at low rpm.

Standard Performance web site follows:

https://www.standardperformance.com/shop/...58ca669b28df91a

I emailed Whipple Industries. I stated my interest in a unit and gave some fairly detailed specs of my motor. Their tech emailed back a brief statement saying that they did not have a unit to fit my application. Not encouraging. I looked at their site and their w140ax just might be the right one. I think tech was telling me no TR6's allowed. I will give them another chance and call. Tech did offer, without elaborating, that the Generation 4 Eaton blower is better than the previous one.

The Whipple site:

https://www.whipplesuperchargers.com/product.asp?ProdID=1162

I will share info as it is gathered.
 
I spoke with Bennett "The French Connection" French of Standard Performance. He was quite engaging. He said that the GP2 cam is fine but anything more is not desirable. There are cam profiles for superchargers but he said that when the boost kicks in a lot of the fine details are not measurable. Yes you can have the best of everything, ie, ported and polished heads, three angled valve jobs, roller rockers, etc., but you might not feel it in the seat of your pants just a lighter wallet. He liked the 7.5 CR head but nothing more than 8.5 CR. He likes the 1.75" SU over the 2" one because it is smoother throughout the rpm range. He runs the SC at 5.5 lbs. of boost and has produced 130 HP and 168 ft.lbs. of torque. Whew, that is a$$ kicking power without stepping on it.

He did say that there is one thing that his kit does not include that he recommends and that is the MSD Ignition Retard for boost and ignition management. Without this or a form of this, the ignition will have to be set at a lower maximum total timing which will render the motor sluggish at low rpm.

Standard Performance web site follows:

https://www.standardperformance.com/shop/...58ca669b28df91a

I emailed Whipple Industries. I included my interest in a unit and gave some fairly detailed specs of my motor. Their tech emailed back a brief statement saying that they did not have a unit to fit my application. Not encouraging. I looked at their site and their w140ax just might be the right one. I think tech was telling me no TR6's allowed. I will give them another chance and call. Tech did offer, without elaborating, that the Generation 4 Eaton blower is better than the previous one.

The Whipple site:

https://www.whipplesuperchargers.com/product.asp?ProdID=1162

I will share info as it is gathered.
 
Al,
Eaton was very willing to help in the begining, as they became more popular they focused on supplying OEM set ups. If the new generation M62 units fit Sal's kit I'd go for it. These SC's were designed for low boost/non intercooled aplications and work very well this way.
 
trboost said:
Alan,
Just went through the Whipple site, very nice stuff. The screw design seems to make the difference from the Roots style. Still a little more money than the M62 but not enough to say no. I wonder what the actual gains would be considering boost levels below 9 lbs. I would also like to know it's compatibility with wet system. It's efficiency rating is excellent.

Keep in mind using the Whipple would require fabricating a new manifold.
Click to expand...

Well that's a given, but I was suggesting it for an MPFI setup - mounted in the same spot as Rick Patton's (so where the alternator is now) and intercooled around the front of the rad. You could power it from the second pulley on the waterpump if you spaced it right.
 
A SC would more likely be driven directly off the crank, not only for belt slippage but pulley diameter requirements. Rick's design is not for the faint of heart and having a shop like his is a definit plus, not to mention his skills. Rick's car is a work of art but it's a bit more than just moving the blower to the other side of the motor.
 
Mitch:
Right you are about Rick's car being a work of art. I rode with him when I visited Maine last year and was impressed riding shot gun. He offered me the wheel and I said no thanks. The reason was I would hate to drive the beast and have to go home to a wimp. But, he has offered again and I think I will take him up on it this time at Stowe next month. And amen to your comments on Rick’s shop and skills.

My goal is to determine the performance gain cost/benefit over what I am running now and the SC. What am I to gain for the $4000 (SC plus MSD plus new head work) minus the sale value of the induction (10:1 CR head and tri 175Z carburetion) setup I have now? I will not go forward until, 1) I am happy with the results of the "on paper" build, and 2) I have a buyer for the present setup. Is that asking too much? Gosh, I still need the paint job.

Alan:
I understand exactly what you were proposing. I spoke with Rick about it. I think the best option there would be Rick's Mercedes electric clutch Kompressor unit over the Whipple. I asked him how much for his system and he said don't ask. He maintains that there is no cost effective way to "kit" his unit. My dad said to me "if you have to ask how much, you can't afford it." He is right.

I am still getting my feet wet in this SC pool. I will be much smarter in a couple of months. Alan, When are you adding the SC to your FI setup?
 
If I don't sell the car and herself gets another job, this winter.
Otherwise as funds allow.
Being down to a single income sucks...
 
Rick & I exchanged some emails a while back and he expressed the fact that his set up was tough to kit as it had gotten pretty involved as the build evolved.

P.S. I spoke to Dr Formica a few weeks ago. He is finishing up a second motor rebuild & should be dropping it in soon.
 
Has anyone ever explored a centrifugal supercharger? I know Vortech makes a small one (v-5 I think it's called). But you could probably get it to work with something like Alana's fuel injection manifold.

You'd have to figure out how to mount it to the engine, but I could definitely see a couple benefits compared to the roots type... at least from a mounting/plumbing point of view.
 
I would advise anyone considering a SC set up on a TR6 to read the SC installation and test article in the Jan/Feb 08 Classic Motorsports magazine. They have what seems to be honest numbers one can expect to achieve. A very informative article for someone who is thinking about supercharging a TR6.
 
LastDeadLast said:
Has anyone ever explored a centrifugal supercharger? I know Vortech makes a small one (v-5 I think it's called). But you could probably get it to work with something like Alana's fuel injection manifold.

You'd have to figure out how to mount it to the engine, but I could definitely see a couple benefits compared to the roots type... at least from a mounting/plumbing point of view.
Click to expand...

I thought about it. The sizing makes mounting easier, but centrifugal chargers don't generate power until well up in the rev range. A quick search turned this up as a good example (it's an Eaton vs a Vortec on a (gasp) Ford): Eaton vs Vortech

You'll see that the Vortech is worse across the board until you hit about 5500rpm - which is close to the 6200 I set redline at.
 
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