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Stupid Design!

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Evidently, on Navigators and Expeditions, to perform some sort of engine repairs, the body has to be removed from the frame.

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That is no different than the mid 80's Chevy S10 Blazer,
to remove the transmission, you have to remove 6 body to
frame bolts, jack the body up, then unbolt the tranny,
and thats exactly how the Factory service manual reads...
Granted, I left a few things out, like drain and remove
the cooling system, unhook the exhaust system from the engine, unplug about 50 connections, remove the distributor cap, remove the heater lines from the heater core connections...

SteveL
the trans cooler lines from the tranny
 
how about that little coolant hose on a 1275? the one kinda under the head? childs play i know compared to some of these posts, but still.

mark
 
Simca: with a Welch plug at the back of the head... one inch clearance from the bulkhead... R&R head to replace.

Ford: 3.0 with a piece of coarse steel wool (!) as a PCV "filter" wot takes a wrench who's also a contortionist gymnast to R&R ~after~ the entire induction system is removed.
 
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I was reading some stuff on a Ford Technician web site...,

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Can you tell me that website? I have some Ford questions.

Bruce
 
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Simca: with a Welch plug at the back of the head... one inch clearance from the bulkhead... R&R head to replace.



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Cylinder head R&R 45 min including adjusting the valves and test drive. (at least on a 4 cyl TR with the same style plug, not fermiliar with Simca)

Modern car cylinder head replacement (probably with the same stupid plug) 10+ hrs.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
It is not just to automotive industry that is doing this, the aircraft industry is the same as is the motorcycle, atv and watercaft manufactures.

Don
 
I had a Merc 390 where the bypass hose from the water pump to the block burst. The nipples were too close together to put a new hose on. I had a choice of removing the water pump or taking a hack saw to the nipples.

How about the 78 Olds where you had to remove the bumper to replace the tail light bulbs?

How about the Chevy Monza where you had to unbolt the engine mounts to change #8 plug.
 
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Modern car cylinder head replacement (probably with the same stupid plug) 10+ hrs.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

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Most likely, banjo.

On the ~opposite~ tack: '94 Honda Civic, Trans input shaft bearing FUBAR... Diagnosis, 10 minutes. 1 hour to get unit out, couple hours of teardown and reassemble, an hour to reinstall. I was prepared to moan 'n whine over th' task but Honda did a fine job with that particular car. The 5-cog gearbox is 'adorable' in its' internal design as well.

I ~did~ hand over th' $80 for the factory Service Manual... Nothing beats information ahead of time when in uncharted waters. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
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[ QUOTE ]
I was reading some stuff on a Ford Technician web site...,

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you tell me that website? I have some Ford questions.

Bruce

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www.flatratetech.com
 
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Simca: with a Welch plug at the back of the head... one inch clearance from the bulkhead... R&R head to replace.

[/ QUOTE ]

The 2.0L Pinto (not the car, the engine) has the same
problem, getting the camshaft out of either the 2.0L
Pinto, or the 2.3L Lima is a simple head removal job,
unless you're a mini stock racer, then you just sawzall
a hole in the cowl...

SteveL
 
[ QUOTE ]
....Try replacing a heater core in a Ford!

[/ QUOTE ]Actually, that's one of the few relatively easy jobs on an early Explorer. I ought to know, since I put in no fewer than FIVE of them over the course of 217,000 miles in 12 years.

To this day I marvel at the fact that about 75% of the vehicle seemed to have been carved from a single billet of steel (not counting the body, with paint quality and rustproofing approximating that of some early 1970s Fiats), and the other 25% of the car made out of a blend of Play-Doh and papier mache.

How about a valve cover RUSTING through? The five aforementioned replacement heater cores? Door hinges that apparently couldn't have held up an old Lotus Elan door without wearing out quickly, not to mention child-safe rear door lock mechanisms that, for much of the entire life of the car, proved their worth by never allowing anyone to open either rear door from the inside OR OUTSIDE.

I won't even go into the automatic locking front hubs and other gems, but I will note the oil pan that cannot be removed without virtually removing the engine. (I mean, you might as well pull the engine, since apparently you have to unhook just about everything to even LIFT the engine sufficiently.) And that wouldn't have been so bad if the oil pump pickup had an intake larger than....

Ah, who cares. Someone finally stopped by last night and offered me token cash for what was left of this Explorer I special-ordered and have owned since November 1990. In fact, the deal was finalized last night, on the 15th anniversary of my taking delivery of the car.

Unlike other cars I've sold, no tears were shed when it was dragged away this morning.
 
Anyone else had the joy of trying to fix one of the Ford electric-hydraulic automatic top systems from the late 50s early 60s. as found on the retractable hardtops and soft tops on the Galaxies, fairlanes, T-birds and whatnot.
What a nightmare.
Every time the system hits a switch and changes function (i.e. the package tray stops folding and the top starts to come up) the wiring diagram completely changes.
Theres a different section in the manual for each phase of the retract-erect cycle.(of which there are 6 for each direction)
And if one of those switches is out of adjustment, STRANGE things can occur!
I had the honor on a 60 T-bird conv. I will actively avoid these in the future!
 
GM Envoy/Trailblazer, 4WD, where the front halfshaft runs THROUGH the oil pan? Or when the first step to removing the headliner is to remove the rear seat.
I worked engineering development for GM Truck for seven years, and there are many horror stories to relate.
Jeff
 
[ QUOTE ]
GM Envoy/Trailblazer, 4WD, where the front halfshaft runs THROUGH the oil pan? Or when the first step to removing the headliner is to remove the rear seat.
I worked engineering development for GM Truck for seven years, and there are many horror stories to relate.
Jeff

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It’s interesting you should bring up the Envoy 4WD. My wife & I recently purchased one of the first “2005” Envoy Denali’s. It’s the XL with 4x4 and has the 5.3L V8. All & all we love it. But I did notice the front half-shaft going through the oil pan too. But I don’t see any other way they could have done this without raising the vehicle height significantly.

While I do profess to being a Ford guy, I actually like the GMC Envoy from design & overall package layout. Technology-wise it seems quite refined, but must admit that it seems like it’d be a nightmare to work on coming from an engineering enviorment. So other than tires & basic servicing – I don’t see me doing much more than taking it to the dealer for almost everything.

But as long as it’s covered under warranty I’m not going to complain. So come back & ask me again in a few years what I think when that warranty expires and I might have a different opinion.
 
Bret,
Thats thier plan entirely.
The only way a manufacturer makes money is if you buy a new car. They don't want you to keep driving it once it's out of warranty, so they make them difficult and expensive to maintain out of pocket. That way you'll buy another one that has a warranty (a new one).
Ta Da!
 
Makes sense. Even in my industry products made today don’t last a fraction as long as they did just a few short years ago.

Example: X-Ray tubes (what we like to call glass wear) is considered a consumable. And once out of warranty to replace a tube costs about 4x as much to replace as an after warranty service contract by themselves that doesn’t include the x-ray tubes. In fact I just replaced a tube that had almost a thousand hours on it (BTW for an industrial x-ray tube that’s a lot) and the tube we installed in its place was supposedly be a vast improvement over the old style. Well guess what it went belly up after a few short months of service with less than 30 hours on it. While the new tube design does have some advantages over its predecessor – the tube’s robustness seems to have diminished.

Whether by intelligent design or a legitimate effort to keep the price down – quality, longevity & serviceability is suffering in most products we see today.
 
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