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TR2/3/3A Steering question

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sp53

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When I drive the tr3 I recently restored the steering does this twist or dart toward the passenger side when I let off the gas between shifts. The dart happens every time when I let off the gas. At first I thought all suspension and steering are new and will bed in after some time. Then I figured the motor is new and tight and the car slows down too quickly when I let off the gas. The car goes nice down the road at 65mph and does not pull either way. Anyone have a similar issue. My latest theory is I installed those nylon bushings, the upgrade, in place of the stock rubber silentblocs. Anyone have a similar issue?

steve
 
I have all the hard steering bushes and it doesn’t wander or do unwanted moves.

as it happens on the overrun I would be looking at something being loose. And then overrun allows a torque effect.
is it steering box or rack.
Don’t ignore the back axle as contributing to this phenomena in these circumstances ok under power and shifting when you lift off
 
Irregular steering geometry, probably on the right, could be the cause and worn out shocks could exaggerate the problem. The geometry problems could be loose or misaligned control arm mounts on the frame or spring tower. The upper control arms have some proneness to cracking along the bends, which could become severe enough to allow the top of the vertical link to go places it shouldn't. You are just going to have to do a thorough inspection of every component and weld in the suspension/steering system. A crowbar would be of use in finding unwanted slack in lots of places.
Bob
 
If it's a gas on/gas off problem, that sounds like the rear axle is out of alignment, and/or something loose in it's mounting. The front suspension would act the same on accel and deccel.
 
The steering problem does seem like it comes from the back. It reminded me of a show I watch once when the engineer said, it was better to pull a car rather than to push a car when they talked about rear or front wheel drive.



Perhaps when I aligned the steering the back triers were not parallel with the front tries. Other than that it seems to me everything in the drive train is keyed in place and should not move. I guess the differential might be out of those studs and holes in the springs. I will get back because something is not correct. I actually thought you guys were going to say that it was the nylon silentblocs moving too freely on acceleration and de-acceleration, but Hammish is driving hard and fast and it sounds like he uses the nylon bushings with no problems.

steve
 
Or something as simple as a low tire on the side that is pulling or a bent wheel. Try swapping the tires around to see if it changes anything.
Charley
 
So, I went under the back of the car to look around for my problem with the moving to right when I accelerate or quickly de-accelerate. The differential is in the hole of springs and centered, but the driver side looks like spring shifts around latterly and the passenger does not. At least that is what I deduced from the rust pattern. This is a guess based on the rust that is starting to show between the leafs.

My experience with differential rebuilding limited, so I am guessing here. Anyways on this differential there does not appear to be one side that is dominate when the wheels turn. I guess like a positive traction rear end. Could there be some kind of limited slip deal because with the car up both wheels turn at the same time with the same strength, and if I try to hold one side from turning when the other side is turning I cannot hold it forward or reverse. I do not think my other car is like that; that car has a wheel that is dominate. Could that be the problem some kind of limited slip or positive traction that holds or forces something ??? Differential ???

Steve drifting to the right
 

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That is not normal…could be something binding in the center pumpkin, or an aftermarket limited slip.
 
Studying the pics I see no issues that are obvious. The right side nuts are not threaded as far, but that should be due to the spacer. With the studs in the clamp there is no way it’s the diff moving. Same with the front…the eyes and front bolts look good.

I’m leaning towards the stiff pumpkin.
 
I don't see why posi would cause the car to dart to the right (or left) on acceleration or deceleration. You previously described the problem as happening only on deceleration. This led to John's doubt about the front end being the culprit (see John's first post}. I think you should start examining the front end.
On the existence of posi or a locked diff in your car, put both rear wheels on jack stands and fully adjust the brake shoes to lock on one side only. Start the car, put it in gear, and let the clutch out at idle. See if it stalls or if the unlocked wheel turns. Also, if the diff is locked (as opposed to posi), if you make a very low speed tight turn on dry pavement, you will feel mild hop from one side of the rear, or even tire squeal. But again, posi or a locked differential would not cause the darting problem. If you are not sure how a differential works, give us a post to that effect and someone will explain.
Bob
 
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I'm starting to think the diff has a broken differential gear. I agree, Bob, that a limited slip should not cause darting, but a malfunctioning limited slip could be catching one wheel harder than the other from accel to deccel. I still don't think it'll be in the front. The front really doesn't know whether it is speeding up or slowing down, unless the front brakes are causing it.
 
Steve-
Fairly easy way to check for broken components and whether you have posi or a locked diff would be to remove the cover plate and take a look.
Bob
 
John
I can imagine a situation in which a front end component prefers its correct position and moves out of position only on the added downward force of letting off the gas.
Bob
 
Thanks you guys. John comment that the differential should not act the way it does with both axles turning in unison. Is that something that could work free? Or better yet should I drive the car. In picture 0340 when I turn up the magnification on the picture, the driver side leaf spring looks like it moves latterly side to side. The leaf spring shows a weird rust pattern between the leafs like it is sliding.

I wonder if a bent frame could cause this. If the frame was bent in a parallelogram, perhaps the bend is trying to push over to be inline???? The back mounting hole on the passenger side for the tub was slotted maybe ½ inch for some reason

So Bob if I take off the cover what I am I looking for? If I do, I will post pics.

The rear axle I found at a yard sale for 25.00 and it has a TS number of 19xxx so it is a 1957

I wonder if the leaf spring bushings are shot and shifting when i shift. I thought I had them replaced. I will check today.

Thanks Steve
 
Steve
How severe is the pull? Do you feel the steering wheel wanting to rotate clockwise does it seem that the whole car is just changing attitude so that you need to apply counterclockwise force? Is it happening on acceleration too? Look at the Moss diagram of the rear end. A stock rear differential carrier will look like part 10 of the diagram (the carrier). Parts 11 (axle gears), 13 (pinion gears, not to be confused with drive pinion in part set 18), 15 (pinion gear shaft) and 17 (axle spacer) will all be readily visible when you look thru the opening of the carrier. John's suspects are one or more of parts 11 and 13. You would be able to see damage to parts 11 or 13 The axle gears slip into the holes on the side of the carrier and spin freely in the carrier when the axles are out. Pinion gears also spin freely around the pinion shaft when the axles are out. If you imagine the axle gears, pinion gears and pinion shaft installed in the carrier with the axles out, spinning one axle gear would spin the pinion gears, which in turn would spin the other axle gear opposite to the way you are turning the first one. This mechanism allows the rear wheels to spin at different speeds when they are going around a corner. In a corner, the inside wheel travels a shorter distance than the outside wheel. If you have a home made locked differential, there would be visible welds holding the axle gears to the carrier. In a turn with such a set up, both wheels turn at the same speed, so one of the tires has to slip on the pavement. A positraction or limited slip system would look nothing like an open carrier, would probably be a closed cylinder and you couldn't see the inside. Such a unit essentially has the axle gears connected by clutches, so they both want to spin at the same speed as the carrier and as each other, but when the wheels' desire to spin at different speeds hits a certain threshold, the clutches allow them to do so.

Multiple leaf springs are held together only by the locating bolt that the penetrates the axle pad and the bolts that hold the axle to the springs. The leaves are supposed to move against each other when the spring flexes. As John said, there is nothing remarkable in your springs as pictured. For a better understanding of what an open diff does, google "diagram of how an open differential works" and take your pick of info.
Bob
 
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Steve, even if the leaves slide a bit, the large leaf is what holds the axle in alignment. To prevent sliding, tighten the clamps with a big wrench, and/or hammer. You might check closely to ensure the large leaf is not broken and just being held by the other leaves.

A bent frame could definitely cause the pull, in that it puts the rear axle out of alignment with the front suspension.
 
Nice write up Bob thank you for taking the time. The movement or dart is not server to the right when I let off or accelerate. If I go slow and steady and relax, the movement is hardly noticeable. When I drive a little bit hard the darting is clearer. It almost feels like a brake is holding in the back, but I do not think so the drums are not too hot. I will check the adjusters this week.

Like Charley thought it could a tire. They are off a car that I put new tires on, but they worked fine on that car before.

I kinda understand about the turning the corner with the tires moving at different speed. I am still fuzzy on how the axles work together and one moves more that the other when cornering with the 4 little gears. I will probably need to take a differential a part a few times to get my mind around how they work.

This differential in the car is low gear and the car seems faster and more powerful than other tr3 I have driven . I have not heard any hopping or dragging when I turn a corner, but have not really listened for that specific effect. The car only has 150 miles on it, but so far it runs great. Off course after I changed the cam.

My guess is someone modified the differential for racing or power or something by the way both tires turn when the car is up in the air.

steve
 
by the way both tires turn when the car is up in the air.

steve
[/QUOTE]
But the question is can you have somebody hold one rear tire and spin the other tire? Or when somebody holds the other tire your side will not move without lots of resistance.
Charley
 
"Crown wheel" is British for "ring gear".
Steve - Are you saying that the tendency to drift right is always present? Only on acceleration, or on accel and decel?
Bob
 
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