Starter questions

[jayhawk]

I had posted earlier stating that my TR3 starter wouldn't engage (just made noise) and I pulled it out to inspect the "guts" as some of you suggested. Before I opened it I tested it outside the car.. It spun the motor but the gear did not push its way out of the original position. I then opened it, cleaned, push pulled, oiled and then cleaned and dried off any excess lubricant. I could not see anything really obvious. I put everything back together and tested it again-- The bendix (or what ever it's called by our British friends) now only came half way to its destination. Because I didn't know what was wrong I took it to a LBC mechanic I had used before and explained the symptoms. Today I got a call to say the starter works fine and did I want to pick it up... $150 and change for rebuilding the starter. The mechanic wasn't there when to answer my questions but another mechanic said the starter was too weak to engage the bendix properly. Oh and also said, "you know, those things aren't available any more" over and over..
So-- is this an acceptable explanation? Price fair? (new brushes, turn armature, etc) but didn't touch bendix. It also seems like the TR4 starter was the sub in the MOSS catalog-- right?

 

[dklawson]

If the starter won't achieve the necessary RPM the Bendix may not advance on the shaft enough for the pinion gear to engage the flywheel ring gear. I guess the explanation is OK.

I can't comment on the price.

The only thing I'd question is the repeated comments about the parts being NLA. The TR3 starter is "probably" used by some other Triumph models(and other LBCs). As the next in the series the TR4 does make sense to be the source for a replacement/substitute starter. There should also be a fair number of NOS and old factory rebuilt starters out there as well as NOS Bendix parts.

 

[Andrew Mace]

[ QUOTE ]
... $150 and change for rebuilding the starter....
The mechanic wasn't there when to answer my questions but another mechanic said the starter was too weak to engage the bendix properly. Oh and also said, "you know, those things aren't available any more" over and over..
So-- is this an acceptable explanation? Price fair? (new brushes, turn armature, etc) but didn't touch bendix. It also seems like the TR4 starter was the sub in the MOSS catalog-- right?

[/ QUOTE ]Hard to say all around without having seen the starter. How well did it "spin" before the "rebuild"? Was the bendix gear clean and rust-free? More often than not, oiling or lubricating them is NOT a good idea in the long term, although some folks will use a dry (graphite) lubricant.

Can you confirm that the starter actually was rebuilt, i.e., can you see the commutator (which should be nice and clean and shiny and ridge-free now) and the new brushes? Did they clean and paint the starter?

For reference, I had a Lucas C40 generator rebuilt last year. Cost was about $90. It works -- and looks -- as good or better than new...and its the original generator to the car; we anoraks like that sort of thing! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

I hope you weren't overcharged, but I remain a tiny bit suspicious. And yes, the TR4 starter should be the same as that for a late TR3 such as yours.

 

[sammyb]

The late TR3s and TR4s use the same starter. Not only are the starters still available all over the place, more importantly, for just a few bucks more, you could have gotten a high torque starter. I just got a high torque starter for my '59 project, and it spun the car to life within two seconds of pushing the starter button after 10 years without running!!! (It weighs less too.)

 

[Geo Hahn]

Much depends on which starter you have. The early pre-TS50000 starter ('bomb' or 'bullet nose') is more or less NLA, even the brushes are unavailable from Moss anymore. The later 'long-nose starter' is pretty common as an eBay item and other sources (e.g. $129 at Vick Brit).

Your TR3A seems to be a '60 but it could have either as the change point was mid-April '59 build date.

Some like the high torque replacements but the originals are pretty durable and simple to service when needed. When they are in good condition they easily start even a engine modified for high compression.

 

[jayhawk]

Thanks, guys. I was a little ticked with the shop because they didn't call me regarding my options and I didn't like that they were using the ploy that the starters were no longer available-- you confirmed what I thought I knew. As it turned out, they did send it to a shop that does nothing but rebuild starters, generators, etc and it came back all painted and shiny. I looked under the strap that covers the brushes and could see that things also looked new and shiny there (I could still be fooled). By the way, my car is a TS47000 series so it does have the funny lookin' tapered/bullet nose type. I finally got the thing in (that's a real rascal to get bolted in!) and it worked really well-- almost "explodes" on. This shop does restorations (currently doing 3 ground up TR6' restorations at once now and a Lotus Elan) so I know they can do the job, but If I use them again, I'll have to be pretty darned clear with my communications. I had used them before but we both knew what was to be done before hand.

 

[Geo Hahn]

[ QUOTE ]
...By the way, my car is a TS47000 series so it does have the funny lookin' tapered/bullet nose type. I finally got the thing in (that's a real rascal to get bolted in!) and it worked really well-- almost "explodes" on...

[/ QUOTE ]

Glad it works so well. That has been my experience too -- that a well rebuilt stock starter is excellent. Since you have the bullet-nose I don't think that $150 is really out of line though an estimate up front and a 'call me if more' note on the work order would have spared you a surprise.

Figuring that that original lasted 45 years, you should be good to go until 2050.

BTW: a TS47000 car just missed the cut as they skipped about 2,000 commission numbers when they began production with the TS50001 changes.

 

[jayhawk]

[ QUOTE ]

Figuring that that original lasted 45 years, you should be good to go until 2050.

BTW: a TS47000 car just missed the cut as they skipped about 2,000 commission numbers when they began production with the TS50001 changes.

[/ QUOTE ]

(Ha! I may not be good to go but maybe one of my kids will reap the benefit!)



Didn't know that about the missing numbers-- sort of like having no 13th floor in hotels?

Thanks Geo and all. After finishing up the starter, I got to drive it around town here in KC at 70+ degrees--- at 8:30 Tuesday night! The front came in Wed morning and it was 32 degrees this morning!

Pete

 

[sp53]

I think you got a good deal jay hawk that starter where I live is about 225.00 exchange. I have rebuilt a couple of them and sometimes getting the rubber sleeve off is a nightmare. It has these little metal snap rings that go into a hidden space, so one has to hold the drive down and get the clip out at the same time. You basically need a special press to do some of the early series because some of them do not have this little stop on the collar and the play on the shaft is about 1/8 of inch. I had to actually make a special tool once which was basically a coal chisel made out of a small quality screw driver and break the ring out in about 1/8 pieces. It took half the day. Anyway I am glad you got it running. If you would have put in a later starter, it would worked for about a week until it ate the ring.

George

 

[TRTEL]

Jayhawk, The only bad thing about the TR starters is that the drive mechanisms on both the early 2-3 and late 3a -4a models were unique to TRs alone. Though at least for the last few years NOS drives for both have shown up on ebay and for reasonable amounts from time to time. The rest of the guts - armatures, field coils, end plates,etc. were used on many different vehicles and can usually be found. I agree with the guys saying that the old original hardware is just as good as the new hi torque. And also agree about the use of powdered graphite or moly disulfide for lubricant, while keeping solvent away from the early (rubber cushioned)drive when cleaning it. good luck, Tom Lains