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So good - and then so bad, so quickly

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RobWarren

Jedi Hopeful
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This weekend was sunny and beautiful in Sydney, I drove Ruby down to Bungendore nr Canberra (about 250kms away) on saturday morning and she ran like a dream. Everything great. You couldn't wipe the smile off my face on saturday night - especially after a few cold beers.

Coming back last night, before we got her warmed up I noticed the oil pressure was up just a touch - nothing too serious, and it came down to normal after a wee while.

Then, after about 150kms, a loud rattling noise started coming from the engine. oil pressure dropped to about 40 (from 55) and settled there. Power dropped a bit and the noise was intermittent but then came back and stayed. I pulled over and decided things were far from good.

The hose that comes out of the radiator was throwing out quite a bit of fluid despite the water temp guage being fine.

Had to call out the NRMS roadside assistance and upon starting it he said straightaway that it sounded like big end or main bearing. Bad. He towed the car to my house and helped me push her into the garage. Bloody nice bloke.

I know very little about these components but I'd be keen to hear from you guys if you've experienced similar problems or if you know if it's repairable etc....or even if it sounds like something else.

Yours, unhappily.

Bob
 
I'm sorry to say that i don't know a great deal aboutht he harmonic balancer - will look it up this evening and do some research.

Whatever it is, I'm praying it's easily repairable!

Trying very hard to keep smiling through this.....
 
Rob,
Based on the current level of knowledge you stated, I offer the following (I say "current level" because that is about to change). I would first make sure you have plenty of engine oil. I would remove the fan belt and spark plugs. Removing the fan belt will take the water pump and the generator out of the "noise curcuit" , i.e. when you crank the engine if one of them is making the noise it will not be turning. With the spark plugs out the engine will crank faster and not start (disconnect the high tension wire from the coil to the distributor too). Crank the engine and listen for any bad sounds. If you have no bad noises and the engine cranks and builds some oil pressure, put the spark plugs back in, hook up the coil wire and start the engine. Run it only for a brief time as you will have no coolant flowing. If it sounds bad, you will have many more suggestions following mine. If you lost a lot of coolant you could have spun a main bearing, but that would have been preceeded by overheating. I assume it did not overheat. You did not mention your water temperature. You may have a bad water pump. Before you put your fan belt back on check the crank pulley for security and the water pump for ease of turning and no wobble. Let us know what you find.
 
Hi Rob,
Sorry to be the bad guy here, but it sounds like your motor lost a bearing.When a engine has a sudden change in oil pressure and the noise, it's time to pull the oil pan off and check the bottom end of that motor. Make sure that you check all main bearings and all rod bearings.I hope the damage is slight.
Bobby R
 
Hello RobWarren,

Are you a member of the NSW AHOC?.

If not then this is probably a good reason to be as there are any number of useful members in that club.

Can you do any of this work by yourself?, "with a little help from your friends".

I would definately start the way roscoe says, plugs out fan belt off and try to determine if the noise is from the top or the bottom.

If you think the noise is from the top remove the rocker cover and see if there is any sign of oil being present. With the plugs out crank the motor to see if there is any oil coming out around the feed line to the rockers. If this line is broken and oil is spewing out in large amounts then you would lose oil pressure and the noise just maybe the rocker bushes are worn out.

Very late BJ8 engines didn't have bushes in the rocker arms they just ran metal to metal (yes I have a set) so with no oil in there it's not a good recipe for survival.

With the fan belt off and your hands around the crankshaft pulley you will feel if it has any radial movement back and forth. This would not cause the oil pressure to drop.

I don't quite agree that if you lost coolant then you would spin a bearing as you said water temp was normal.

Try to take small steps at a time and not jump to conclusions based on guesses.

Keep the questions coming, we'll get that Aussie BJ8 on the road again.

Regards,

bundyrum.
 
RobWarren
Sorry to hear about your engine problems. You will find lots of help from knowledgeable folks here on this site...hopefully you'll be up and running soon. Just wanted to say that last Sept I was in Manly (NSW) and had the pleasure of seeing a gorgeous BJ8 Healey (blue over white) at the stop light in front of the ferry landing (Steyne & Corso)...I gave the thumbs up , the driver nodded in appreciation, then zoomed off...was that you?
 
It wasn't me but I have a feeling I know who it was - possibly the same bloke who used to own my BJ8 and brought it over from the States and performed the RH conversion.

He's spent the last 5 years doing a ground-up restoration on that car and he's beenvery helpful with info for me too.

I am a member of the AHOCNSW and will be tapping into their experience for some assistance.

Like the idea of starting from the top and figuring out where the problem is first! Simple but effective. I've also got contact details fromt he last owner and the mechanic he used who re-ground the crank and bearings, so all the info should be there for me - I just need a bit of patience!

Thanks gents - helpful as always and I'll keep you updated.

Any other ideas....keep 'em coming!

Bob
 
Right - I found out what's wrong!

Comments below from my local Classic Car mechanic (this was WAY beyond my skillset):

The main damage is to number 6 big end. Probable cause is the big end bearing spinning on the crank, this is more than likely caused by tightness of the crank after machining.

To repair we would remove engine and gearbox and fully strip the motor to inspect and basically overhaul the motor including crank regrind (if possible-new crank if not), new bearings right through, line bore, clean out all oil galleries, new piston rings, cylinder head service, new gaskets and seal right through.

One thing that is obvious straight away is that all the con rods are in the incorrect order which if it was line bored (when engine was 'reconditioned' less than 1000 miles ago) should not matter but it does beg the question why this was done and why they did not re-mark the rods?

I'd love your thoughts gents. I bought the Healey with a reconditioned engine so i wouldn't have to face big mechanical problems like this....and I suspect I haven't a legal leg to stand on by going back to the mechanic who did the work beforehand and asking him why the bearings didnt' last 1000 miles (I know he did all bearings and reground crankshaft).

Rob
 
I haven't seen the motors condition, but it sounds like the new mechanic wants to take you to the cleaners. What kind of head service would be needed after 1000 miles? Have you seen the engine apart?
 
Hey Greg,

I haven't seen the engine apart yet but the mechanic has invited me down to see all the damage before proceeding with anything.

I had the engine head tightened after 500 miles and tappets readjusted as per normal and that's been the only engine work since the 'reconditioning' of last year when the car was in previous hands.
 
The #6 seems like a weak link in the engine. I completly rebuilt the engine in 05 and enjoyed 2 summers of driving. Approx. 2600 miles later the #6 rod was knocking and I had to have the crank turned and reassebled with new bearings. The bearing was worn to the copper but it did not spin in the rod. The machinist commented that the oil clearance was the one of the largest he has worked with. I mic'd the others myself and they were all at .003 which is the high end of the clearance range.

I used regular oil for about 1000 miles before swithing to diesel rated and 11 of 12 lifters had galling. I replaced them all.

I blame the cause on a 30 minute session on a race trck that the loose nut behind the wheel had no regard for the suggested red line. It was fun.

I would love to see an oiling schematic and see at what point the #6 is in the system. why is this the rod that seems to take the brunt of oil problems if that is what is causing it.

I will monitor this thread as more info comes

Kevin R
 
Rob

The garage may not be stitching you up, they are giving you the worst case, the clean up of the Cylinder head is something that you could request them not to do, but it is only a clean up.

You may not have the skills to rebuild the engine, but what about just dropping the sump. If you have not got the modified seal on the back of the crank, you could then remove the bottom cap on the rear bearing and check the shell out for damage on either side. The bearing shells should not rotate unless things were not done correctly, if put in correctly they should click into position and stay put. If there was oil starvation due to a blocked oilways then things could get a bit out of hand and I suppose it is possible for the locating lugs to shear. Bearing caps may have been switched around which definitely will not help, they are all matched up and must be put back in their correct location. The bores may have attracted wear due to the damaged bearing/s and this can only be checked when the head is off and the pistons are out. All bad news I'm afraid

Bob
 
Bob Hughes said:
Rob
If you have not got the modified seal on the back of the crank, you could then remove the bottom cap on the rear bearing and check the shell out for damage on either side.
Bob
Click to expand...
Unfortunately, the rear main cap is cross bolted to the back engine plate & the bolt heads are inside the clutch housing. Can't access them without moving the flywheel housing.
D
 
Rob,

sorry to hear about your engine. You may want to locate a few Healey experts from local clubs in the area to help solve the mystery. Based on the multiple failures with your engine, IM sure there are skilled and willing members that can help avoid a 3rd rebuild.

These are strong power plants that can take a lot of spirited driving when put together properly. Keep us posted!

Regards,

John
 
I'll definitely keep you all posted.

I'm going to have a chat with the bloke who did the initial engine rebuild a thousand miles ago and see what he reckons.

Then I'll talk to the mechanics I'm using. I'm currently waiting for a response from my local Healey Owners Club to see what they think too - more opinions will help in this situation I think.
 
Hello RobWarren,

I hate to have to ask this but this "new" mechanic you took this to did he come recommended by any Healey member?. If not then take it to someone who is. The Healey club is going to be your best bet as far as resources for absolutely anything.

There is no need to remove the gearbox, that is unless you think the PO did a job on that like he did on the motor.

The con rods have nothing to do with the block having been "line bored" it's the main caps that are line bored.

I was just going to go on and on about all the things you need to look at and realised that really you should just talk to The Healey Factory in Melbourne. Their website is www.HEALEYFACTORY.com.au Click on "contact us" scroll down and fill in the details and tell them what happened and take it from there.

GregW. I have to agree with you again, as my comment above regarding the gearbox.

bundyrum.
 
Hi all,

For those interested, here's the latest update on Ruby:

After a lot of to-ing and fro-ing trying to get the chap who did the reconditioning 1000 miles ago to inspect the engine, he maintained that as he'd assembled everything according to the manual re clearances etc, that the problem could have been caused by one or more of many factors and so it's not up to him to inspect it.

So, I asked my mechanic to remove the engine and have a good look. Here's what he found:

"We have removed the engine and gearbox complete and split the engine from the box and removed the cylinder head.
We have previously removed the sump to inspect the crank. The cylinder head and engine block have gone to the engine reconditioners who have inspected it and have found the following:
a.. The rear oil flinger/scroll on the end of the crank has been running so close to the engine block that it has overheated and this is the cause of the failure of #6 big end bearing, the big ends will be machined to 30" undersize and the Main bearings to 20" undersize, the scroll type oil flinger will be replaced with a Holden type rear main oil seal using a neoprene seal.

b.. The temp sender is seized solid in the block so will be drilled and tapped as required and new sender fitted.

c.. The cylinder head was inspected and it was found that there are 5 bent inlet valves and 3 bent exhaust valves, these will be replaced and 12 new valve stem oil seals will be fitted as required. We are in a better position to give you some idea of cost now, we are estimating (Australian$) 7500-8000."

Needless to say I'm so fed up with things that I just want my car back and am having the garage do the work. I'd be interested to hear all of your your thoughts on the matter though.

Bob
 
Sorry to hear that Bob. Hard to say what went wrong, but my first guess would be the engine was <span style="font-weight: bold">not</span> built to proper tolerances. It may just be a language difference, but some of the wording from the machine shop confuses me. I don't know how you would replace the oil flinger, I believe it is part of the crank, not an add-on. Drilling out the temp sensor from the block would be tough, since it's located in the cylinder head. Are they replacing any of the valve guides?
 
KevinBN7 said:
I used regular oil for about 1000 miles before swithing to diesel rated and 11 of 12 lifters had galling. I replaced them all.
Kevin R
Click to expand...
There has been a lot of discussion lately about the reduction of extreme pressure additives in newer oil formulations.(ZDDP)

To sum it up, new lifters & cam lobes should be liberally coated with an extreme pressure break in lube such as GM's EOS or equivalent. This same EP additive should also be in the crankcase oil. Certainly not "regular" oil only.

The first engine run should be at 2,000 to 2,500 rpm & not interrupted for 20 minutes or so. (Additional splash lube to the cam & lifters.)

If the cam & lifters are not properly bedded, smoothed, in the first 20 minutes of running they will never last for long.

It's likely that you should use an EP additive or one of the few known "good" oils for the life of the engine. Even the Diesel rated oils have reduced EP additives lately.
D
 
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