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pushing in clutch pedal stops engine

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ramajon

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my 59 bugeye w/ 1098 engine and dgv weber carb is hard to start...w/ the clutch in it takes a lot longer to start than if i don't push the clutch in...also when i get the car started w/ the clutch pedal untouched then go to push the clutch pedal down, the engine cuts out...i have to rev the engine as i put the clutch inorder not to stall out...this seems to only occur when the engine is cold...anyone have any ideas as to why pushing the clutch pedal in effects the engine this way...thanks
 
Should never try to start an engine, much less a Bugeye with the clutch in. It is hard on the graphite throw out bearing and of course as you noted puts strain on the starter motor.

Now, when engine is cold and you push clutch in you are of course putting a load on the engine thus causing RPM to drop or the engine to stall. Why?

I would suggest carberation is not correct for cold starting as a minimum, is your choke set up properly, is idle to low? And yes they like some choke in the cold.
 
Not to takeover this thread but should you never start any car with the clutch depressed? The only reason I ask is that my Ford Ranger is designed that way and only recently did I have a problem where is would not start & I suspect that clutch cutoff switch. I was going to disconnect it.
 
I also have a ranger and there is no hope for it, but the modern throw out bearings are ball bearings rather than graphite so not quite the problem there. However still puts additional load on starter etc, but then the Ranger was designed for it I suspose and the Bugeye surely was not and is a senior citizen after all.
 
vping,

All 'modern' cars/trucks have the clutch interlock installed so that the owner cannot start the car (accidentially) in gear. Big Brother looking out for all the idiots out there! I have an Chevy S-10 and it HAD the interlock but the first time I had to push start it the interlock went by - by (bypass wire) and it remains so today.

Back to our cars, starting with the clutch in is hard on the starter and the throw out bearing (carbon bush) and should only be used in emergencies. Pushing the clutch in loads the clutch (throw out bearing) and the engine. If there is any play in the thrust bearing it also shoves the crank forward adding even more load.

Since ramajon's problem is when the car/engine is cold it sounds like a combination of a load on the motor (clutch in) and probably low idle speed or lean mixture or all of the above.
 
Well, Biff, all modern cars? Not the Elise!
I have known cars where the drag of cold gearbox oil exceeded the drag of the clutch thrust bearing, even back in the carbon thrust days, and pressing the clutch lightened the starter load.
If it's got to the stage where pressing the clutch stops a running engine, then there's something seriously wrong. Maybe the carbon thrust is worn out, maybe the crankshaft thrust bearings.
 
On the transverse A-series engines there are stops that must be adjusted to prevent excessive travel/force being placed on the crank thrust bearings when the clutch is depressed. One of the tests to identify problems with older engines is to set the idle speed low and actuate the clutch while monitoring engine RPM. The clutch on inline engines is so different... I don't know if any of this is applicable, but I thought I should mention it.
 
Has your gear shifting become more difficult or has its action changed in any way?
 
That does seem strange the pushing the clutch causes the engine to stall, unless the throwout bearing is having problems. I usually don't clutch the Midget when starting because it doesn't have the starter lockout, and because I want to try to preserve the 1500's notorious thrust washer since there's no oil pressure. So far I only forgot to put in neutral once /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif. Then I get in the other car and wonder why it doesn't start.
 
Check the end play on the crank, immediately. It certainly sounds as if the thrust washers are gone. When you hit the clutch pedal, you force the cheek of the crank against the main bearing boss of the block.
<u>Gently</u> lever the front of the crank rearward as far as you can by prying against the face of the pulley, using a chunk of wood on the pulley to protect it. Now, have someone push the clutch pedal in while you watch the pulley closely. There shouldn't be any noticeble movement. If there is movement, that means the crank is walking in the block due to bad thrust washers.
I certainly wouldn't drive it like this, unless you have a spare engine lying around.
Jeff
 
Jeff... so the inline and transverse engines do have the same crank float issues?
 
Jeff,

I haven't gotten around to checking it yet...but what would be the fix for this? Tear open the block and replace the bearings and such? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

What's the danger of driving it in this condition? Slowly but surely wearing-out and destroying all the internals? Or, could things get real bad real quick without notice?

Joel
 
Doug, as far as I know, all the engines are the same when it comes to this.
Joel, as the thrust washers wear thinner, more of the crank will come in contact with the block. Eventually, something has to give way. On the 948's and 1098's, the end play is supposed to be .008"-.012", the 1275 is set at .006"-.010".
Anything much over that is cause for concern, as excessive end play can also put unwanted side loads on the rods.
The only way to fix the problem is to drop the pan and fit new washers. Personally, I'd yank the engine and do the whole thing on the stand, as you can check the crank for wear, and address any problems there, if necessary.
Jeff
 
Jeff,

I have no way to pull the engine and do a major overhaul (I live in an apartment w/o a garage). However, is dropping the oil pan a fairly straightforward job? Which washers would I need to get and where should I get them (Moss)?

I got another problem I'd like to ask you about too, but I'll post it under a new topic.

Joel
 
Joel, dropping the pan is no big deal. As for the washers, you will need to take an accurate measurement of the end play to determine what size(s) you need. The best way is with a dial indicator, but you can also do it with feeler gauges. Remove the thrust washers and reinstall the bearing cap. Lever the crank forward, and check the clearance at the rear of the center main journal, between the cheek of the crank and the cap. Then lever the crank the other way, and check it again. Now subtract the correct thrust from the measured total, and that will give you the dimension you need to shoot for when you get new washers. They come in different sizes, and it's OK to mix them to obtain proper clearance.
Moss is one place to get them, as is APT. www.aptfast.com
If you have a dial indicator, you can set it up on the crank pulley, and get a good idea of where you are at before dropping the pan. You could just be approaching the upper limit, and be good to go for awhile yet.
Jeff
 
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