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Project Up-date - Body ID Tags - Success

Re: Project Update - Body ID Tags - Success

Peter: Then I bought the 3A back in 1986, it was a near basket case. or as a good friend of mine from NC says, "she looks like she was rode hard and put up wet". So, the lower "Mulliner's tag was 50 percent eaten away and I couldn't even guess the numbers. Well maybe 10 years ago, I sent off to BMIHT and got he records. Perhaps I was lucky, but everything matched. The commission number, engine number and "EB" number. So my confidence that the correct Mulliner's number was high. If you haven't done this you might consider contacting them at: https://www.heritage-motor-centre.co.uk/

<u>The Mulliner family has its roots set deeply in BMI history, being one of the original builders of coaches for the royal mail. Just a bit of trivia, I didn't realize until I read this today. From 1958, Triumph owned Mulliners. I had always considered them a "vendor" and not actually a part of Triumph. </u>
<span style='font-size: 8pt'>This company seems to have originated around 1896 and built a few bodies for Daimler before deciding the future lay in making large production runs for motor companies that did not have their own facilities. An early contract was gained from Calthorpe, then a booming company, leading to probably the entire output going to them and eventual close financial and corporate links between the two. After Calthorpe failed in 1924, the managing director of Mulliners, Louis Antweiler, arranged to buy the coachbuilding company which was then renamed Mulliners Ltd. He obtained contracts with Clyno and Austin for who he made many Weymann style fabric bodies for the Austin 7. When the fashion for fabric bodies declined the business with Austin went but was replaced by orders from Hillman, Humber, Standard and Lanchester. In 1929 the company went public. The main business was now with Daimler and Lanchester wherre they made the bodies for the cheaper range of cars with confusingly, Arthur Mulliner of Northampton making the up-market models. Alvis was added to the list of customers. During World War 2 they made bodies for military vehicles and troop carrying gliders. After the war body making for cars resumed with Aston Martin, Armstrong Siddeley and Triumph joining the list of customers. <u>Standard-Triumph had by then a shortage of body making capacity and this led them to buy the company in 1958. The name disappeared in 1962.</span></u>
 
Re: Project Update - Body ID Tags - Success

I've never obtained a BMH or other certificate for either of mine, but I take it that a Mulliner's # is not available. It could be an interesting experiment if everyone, who has an unmolested car with a TS# to provide it along with their Mulliner's # and input both on a spreadsheet. The data points could then be used to create an X(TS#)-Y(Mull.#) graph. Could work if Mulliners was at all consistent. Then folks like Peter and I would have at least a snowballs chance in Hades of figuring it out. I would volunteer to create and publish the database.
 
Re: Project Update - Body ID Tags - Success

Mulliners made and painted the bodies. They attached the EB number and it was painted body colour. When I bought my TR3A brand new the EB plate was painted black.

The lower plate is also made of brass and was not painted. It was like this when I bought my car. This lower plate was attached as the TR was moving down the Triumph production line. Because everything that needed painting had already been painted earlier, this lower brass plate didn't get painted. It is for this reason that I don't call this lower plate the "Mulliner" plate. In fact, I don't call either one by this name.

For those interested in getting a number plate near to the correct number here are my numbers for reference.

TS 27489 LO (Comm. No. or VIN)
TS 27789 E (engine)
EB 27710 (painted brass)
983670 (bare brass)
TS 27764 (gearbox)
 
Re: Project Update - Body ID Tags - Success

Don, Interesting, your EB # is a couple hundred ahead of your commission # and mine is a couple thousand behind, 56k vs. 58k. Do you still have your invoice? Are any of the other #'s listed on the original paperwork? Any ideas surrounding the bare plate #? Did you order any accessories? Mine is 7 digits. Thanks for the #'s.
 
Re: Project Update - Body ID Tags - Success

Frank,

I have a BMIHT certificate:

Car/Chassis TS/29694-L
Engine TS/30195-E
Body 985294-TS

No EB number on the certificate either. I assume that the Body number listed is what is sometimes referred to as the Muliner's number.

I have an spare original EB plate but from a much later car, post 60K series.
 
Re: Project Update - Body ID Tags - Success

They didn't know about "Just in Time" back in 1958. When Mulliners built and painted the bodies, the last one into the paint shop was the first one out and vice versa. THey would paint a lot of red ones, then a lot of blue ones and so on. Then the bodies were trucked to Canley for final assembly. There they sat for a while - again it was "last in, first out". Also if a lot of buyers all asked for a red TR, the sales force asked for 100 red TRs and the factory would line these up and so the numbers really got mixed up. But the painted EB number put on by Mulliner's stayed with the body.

Standard-Triumph attached the lower brass number and these, I have been led to believe from Alan Robinson, the TR2 to TR3B registrar at the TR Register before Bill Piggott took it over (last year after about 15 years or more, Bill resigned this post and Mike Ellis is the new registrar) - that S-T used the lower number (unpainted brass) on all of the Triumphs (all types and all models - not just TRs). So the numbers that seem to be missing may have been used on Mayflowers or on Vanguards that day.
 
Re: Project Update - Body ID Tags - Success

Another data point... TS47905L = EB 1053677. But I too doubt that the correlation is inadequate to more than get you w/i 10000 or so.

These numbers were used in a orderly fashion but not in lock-step, e.g. at the end of the day on 4/15/59 they built the last TR3A with the 'bomb' starter, I believe it was about TS48000... the next car built was TS50000 or TS50001 just because it made a nice distinctive change point for the various mods intorduced. Add to that bodies shipped w/o chassis & engines shipped w/o cars and stocks being used in orders other than FIFO and almost anything could happen.
 
Re: Project Update - Body ID Tags - Success

Here's mine:

TS44864LO (Comm. #)
TS45628E (engine)
TS45658 (gearbox)
TS45557 X10X41 (rear axle; 4.1)
EB45165 (painted brass)
1050383 (bare brass)

I'm not the original owner, but it was an 80K car when I bought it in 1980. Numbers match the ones on the BMHT certificate.

Good info Geo.

Jeff
 
Re: Project Update - Body ID Tags - Success

George, Is that EB # correct? It looks more like an unpainted brass tag #
 
Re: Project Update - Body ID Tags - Success

TRTEL said:
George, Is that EB # correct? It looks more like an unpainted brass tag #

Of course you're right. I started the message then realized I didn't have the EB number with me (it's 48nnn) but did have the other number.

I'm carrying it in my wallet so I will have it handy the very second Frank says he's ready to take orders.
 
Re: Project Update - Body ID Tags - Success

Another anecdote I've heard (and read) is some owners are surprised to see their factory red car with a blue, green or even white chassis. When the orders came in Triumph used whatever color chassis was available at the time to help speed production. The painters at Triumph often used whatever color was left in their paint guns to paint the chassis.

My friend has a Wedgewwod Blue TR3 with a red chassis as it came from the factory.
 
Re: Project Update - Body ID Tags - Success

Update! /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/banana.gif

I now have an ad in the classified section of this forum.

Thank you for your support.

Frank
TRtags@comcast.net
 
Re: Project Update - Body ID Tags - Success

Due to a misunderstanding my ad was pulled. (my mistake)
If you have any questions regarding this project, please contact me at: trtags@comcast.net

Thank you /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif
 
Re: Project Update - Body ID Tags - Success

Some variations

TR-23pair.jpg


commission_numbers.jpg


crypty.jpg


/bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/thumbsup.gif
 
Re: Project Update - Body ID Tags - Success

Frank - They look super. I'll send you a photo of mine after I get it installed.

May I suggest you look at the following photos and you'll see that you need to make full half-rounded ends to be like the originals. I know you said you would leave the holes to be done by the buyer and if you left enough extra end material, the buyer might also round it as well. But I would have though that the total length with fully rounded ends would have been the same for all original brass blanks.

Which ever way you decide, you might want to have a simple sketch included with each shipment detailing what the buyer will have to do to make them fit and so they look original.
 

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Re: Project Update - Body ID Tags - Success

The 1, 3, 5 fonts are incorrect anyway so it will stand out to the judges with a keen eye. Overall though, a very nice job and my order will be coming soon.

Don, the numbers in the black car picture are way off, the painted EB number looks to be early '58 but the shiny brass chassis number is much later '59?

Also the original holes are punched through, not drilled, so there is a metal tit on the backside of the hole. If that matters to anyone.

I have an original spare brass tag EB73504 that I would like to TRADE with an original plate in the range EB29500 - EB 30500. If anyone has one, PM me please.

here
eb73504.jpg
 
Re: Project Update - Body ID Tags - Success

Peter - You have a keen eye. I hope you are not a concours judge at TRA ! The black one is my 1958 TR3A TS 27489 LO. Because my lower number got corroded in its first life, a friend gave me the brass lower number plate for show. See my correct number. I have a new correct one from Frank which will be attached when I get my car back from the paint shop.
 

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Re: Project Update - Body ID Tags - Success

Take a close look at both the above original brass plates. The numerals 3 and 7 on my corroded plate have shart upper right top corners. The 3 and the 7 on the EB plate from Frank has these top right corners squared off. Which proves that there must have been more than one machine stamping out these number plates.
 
Re: Project Update - Body ID Tags - Success

Don: Thanks for the great suggestions. I took these photos for "promotional" reasons. What you see here are examples right off the machine. To begin and finish a tag, the machine has a special (Start/Finish) die that partially rounds off the end and punches two very small holes. The blank material I use is 0.020 engraver's brass. I order it in 0.875-inch wide strips to fit the machine. However, as you have pointed out, originally the tags were 0.75 wide and had completely rounded ends. So, after the tag comes off the machine, I trim it to the proper width and round off the ends. Here’s another trial, which I believe is a bit more authentic. The holes are approx. 174 mm apart, which is the same as my original tag. As far as the manner in which the holes were made, you will also get the mushrooming effect if you use a dull drill. I don’t think the originals were punched. Perhaps dull drill and no backing which would push material out as shown in Pete’s photo. We may never know for sure. Isn’t this fun?

DSCN2916.jpg
 
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