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Ok, so what's the deal with my starter pinion?

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You're the man, Mike. You're the one who actually made sense! But what's confusing still is why two completely different suppliers and rebuilders sent me the same wrong starter. I noticed that even your website had this incorrect starter listed as applicable to the TR2-4 (though I see you have now corrected it!) Is there perhaps some bad documentation out there incorrectly saying the two starters are interchangeable? Or maybe it's all just a weird coincidence.
 
As the vehicles get older there is a lot of descrepency concerning the right application for an individual unit. I try to keep up with the correct information, using an old Lucas application guide I have at the business and yes when I find an incorrect application I automatically correct it. This also the reason we have photographs of the units on the web site so the customers can see them. Since I also answer the telephone at the business I always ask customers question about their units. In your case I would have asked, does your starter have a full teeth pinion or a pinion with halve the teeth shaved down. With your response I would have supplied you with the correct unit and you would have been driving your vehicle today.


Mike
Star Auto Electric Company
 
So my current supplier is now saying Moss tells him they've always delivered the long pinion starters for the TR3 and never had a problem. You just need to shim it. If I shimmed this starter to clear the pinion gear, it'd always be engaged in the ring gear.

I'm so confused my head is spinning! I'm not confused how to fix the issue, I can just buy a starter from Mike and my problem is solved. I'm just confused as to why I'm getting people telling me the long pinion starters will work, when my eyes tell me there's no possible way.

Anybody here know for a fact they've got a long pinion starter currently on their TR3A with bolt on ring gear?
 
Sounds like BS to me. Granted I have a TR4 but I believe its the same bolt on setup. And the pinion is stepped on all the starters I have.
 
Jeremy - I'm 99% sure I've got the long pinion bullet nose starter, and I'm 99% sure I've got the bolt on ring gear.

(But I'm not going to pull it all apart to add the extra 1% ...)

I remember when Paul Rego "Brosky" came over to diagnose my starter problem many moons ago, and recommended a shop in Providence RI to rebuild/replace it and provide the shims I needed. I'll scout around and maybe I've got some pictures. Or daguerreotypes ....

Tom
PS - I seem to recall there were some starters that pushed the pinion gear *out* to the ring, and some similar starters that pulled the pinion gear *in* to the ring. But memory's really fuzzy in that.
 
As an aside, my original TR3 ST Service Instruction Manual has a line drawing of the drive assembly on the "bullet nose" starter. The pinion gear in that diagram is not stepped.

That doesn't prove anything, but thought you might be interested.

Tom
PS - I'm dense. You mention "if I shimmed this starter to clear the pinion gear, it'd always be engaged in the ring gear." But if I recall, adding shims pulls the starter back away from the ring. So maybe I don't understand what you mean by "always engaged in the ring"?
 
NutmegCT said:
Jeremy - I'm 99% sure I've got the long pinion bullet nose starter, and I'm 99% sure I've got the bolt on ring gear.
Click to expand...

I don't have the bullet nose starter, I've got the later crash bendix starter. What I'm wondering is if there is anybody with this later style starter and a long pinion.

NutmegCT said:
You mention "if I shimmed this starter to clear the pinion gear, it'd always be engaged in the ring gear." But if I recall, adding shims pulls the starter back away from the ring. So maybe I don't understand what you mean by "always engaged in the ring"?
Click to expand...

See picture below. When disengaged, the pinion is behind the ring gear. When you engage the starter, the motion pulls the pinion <span style="font-style: italic">forward</span> through the helical cut in the shaft and engages the ring gear. When you release the starter, the flywheel motion pushes the pinion <span style="font-style: italic">back</span> through the helical channel, away again.

If the pinion is the shorter version, everything would work fine. With this long version the pressure plate gets in the way while the pinion is disengaged. Shims would position the pinion further forward while disengaged, but as you can see from the picture, that would cause it to always be engaged with the ring gear.

pinion.jpg


The only thing I can think of, other than the obvious (it's just simply the wrong starter) is that my pressure plate lip is too wide. If that lip were thinner, the long pinion would be ok. A friend of mine took a picture of his flywheel and pressure plate that looks to me like this might be the case. It's hard to tell from the picture since it isn't bolted down, but it looks like his pressure plate lip comes flush with the flywheel. I'm waiting on his clarification.

pplate.jpg
 
Exactly as Mike said above, Moss and most vendors rely on their suppliers to tell them what fits what. I've been through this before with other parts, and the fellow at the Moss counter actually said to my face "We've never had a complaint before" when *I* had previously complained about the exact same problem.

It took several years of argument and public humiliation before they were finally convinced that one size doesn't fit all.

What you've got is simply the wrong starter, no matter what the seller says.
 
Hi Jeremy, all the grief you are going through is because of all the misinformation, remember you even said you remember you having a different pinion on your old starter. Even the break down shows a pinion with halve the teeth shaved down. Do you really want to use shims? As a proffesional who has been doing this type of work since 1976 let me show you again the correct starter for your vehicle. Beleive those that do this type of work on a daily basis and not suppliers who depend on their vendors.

Best regards,
Mike
Star Auto Electric Company
 
This is the picture of the starter your vehicle requires.

Mike
Star Auto Electric
 

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I don't recall the TR4A pressure plate extending beyond the edge of the flywheel so maybe one of these would work on a TR4A (and Moss lists the same starter for TR3A-TR4A) even though the TR4A came with the other pinion as well originally.

Sorry can't help you on the earlier TR3 or TR4 pressure plate as I haven't started on my TR3 yet.

Scott
 
starauto said:
Hi Jeremy, all the grief you are going through is because of all the misinformation
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Yeah, I know, I know. Like I said, I know the solution (thanks to you!) I'm just trying to figure out the root of the confusion on the issue. It bugs me not to know! :crazy:

I know you're correct! The starter you say is the right one is clearly the one that came out of my car, the one the original documentation calls for, and the one that will work.

But I've got several other sources saying the wrong starter should work as well, and I'm trying to determine if there is any truth to that. Not because I want to use it in my car, but really just for the pursuit of knowledge at this point.
 
There is no confusion at all. You can clearly see by the photograph you are showing that the full pinion is binding and cannot be used. If you want to use a trustworthy source check your vehicle's manual or if you are able to obtain a Lucas starter application catalog that will clearly show the halve tooth pinion to be the correct starter, sorry to say your other sources are leading you down the wrong path because these are the only two starter the early TR series vehicles used
 

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You're making too much sense Mike. And I agree, the original owner's manual and parts book agree with you. It's making it very hard to argue with you :wink:
 
Please don't take my comments as an arguement Jeremy, it is just there too many people and suppliers not being straightforward and mis informing the public and it makes hard for those of us who know our profession to be believed. This situation not only happens with the correct applications of components but it also happens with bad quality units at ridiculous low prices and long warranties and it just makes it that much more difficult for those businesses who offer quality components to sell our units.

Mike
Star Auto Electric
 
HerronScott said:
I don't recall the TR4A pressure plate extending beyond the edge of the flywheel so maybe one of these would work on a TR4A
Click to expand...
And that might well be the source of confusion. The TR4A pressure plate (and clutch plate) are smaller than the earlier cars, so likely the Healey starter would work. Vendors are always on the lookout for ways to reduce inventory (and hence costs), so I'm sure this would appeal.
 
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