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General TR Oil Pan Questions
- Thread starter RJS
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charlie74
Jedi Warrior
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These sump washers spread the load.
I don’t use cork gaskets as they deform too readily especially if you try the 18ftlb
There are 2 other gaskets a paper one and a thicker card type. A smear of aviation permatex on either side of the gasket and you should be fine. If the tin sump has been dressed flat esp at the bolt holes
I use an ali sump and you don’t have these issues.
This is what I did with my OEM oil pan. I bought a sheet of gasket material and got a pro to cut it for me:
I like them Hamish, I can imagine how well they will work with 3/32 paper gasket and some non-hardening permatex, that I will try it soon.
RJS, for me, the other places the pan can leak would be the rear main sectionfor the seal. However, I installed one of those aftermarket seals for I think 150.00.
Another place where it could be leaking is felt gaskets on each side of the rear cap, but that seems unlikely by the way the felt ends on the block.
I had an oil pan with a crack in the sheet- metal that leaked worse when the engine warmed up.
There is another place I am thinking about on this engine where it leaks might be on the front seal and the oil is moving towards the back of the engine as I move.
Plus there is the open crankcase that could spread oil as it breaths. However,I am not too sure about this because I am not sure when the vent is sucking or blowing air.
Steve
RJS, for me, the other places the pan can leak would be the rear main sectionfor the seal. However, I installed one of those aftermarket seals for I think 150.00.
Another place where it could be leaking is felt gaskets on each side of the rear cap, but that seems unlikely by the way the felt ends on the block.
I had an oil pan with a crack in the sheet- metal that leaked worse when the engine warmed up.
There is another place I am thinking about on this engine where it leaks might be on the front seal and the oil is moving towards the back of the engine as I move.
Plus there is the open crankcase that could spread oil as it breaths. However,I am not too sure about this because I am not sure when the vent is sucking or blowing air.
Steve
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RJS
Jedi Warrior
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Steve
Thanks. I feel pretty good about getting this all back together at this point. Your rear seal was an "engine out" job, correct? If so, not an option for me right now.
I am considering two more options before I reassemble everything
Bob
Thanks. I feel pretty good about getting this all back together at this point. Your rear seal was an "engine out" job, correct? If so, not an option for me right now.
I am considering two more options before I reassemble everything
- Mine is a TR4A with the PCV valve. Having owned this car 25 years, I am not convinced the PCV is the best engineered solution to block venting. I am considering removing the block plug behind the fuel pump and installing a catch tank (Racetorations sell them). I am not looking to open a debate on PCVs and engine breathing. My only question is, if I ever want to reverse this, can I easily replace that plug with the engine in the car (i.e. can I tap a new one into the block from the outside)?
- Front sealing block - is it worth considering pulling this and renewing the seals and the two cork "T" gaskets? Or, is this potentially opening a can of worms if I remove that?
Bob
On the sealing the bridge piece, I have done it before, but I also removed the bear plate on the front of the engine with the engine in the car, no fun because the engine mounts are on the bear plate.
Anyways this time I will not remove the bear plate and will see how the bridge is and go from there. Separating the small bridge piece from the bear plate gasket should not be too difficult if need be, but those are my famous last words some time. if removeal of the bridge piece become problematic, I should be able to seal the front of the bridge piece and bear plate with the same RTV used on the ends. The ends on the bridge piece are where a leak could easily be, so at some point the bridge piece probably needs to come out when chasing oil leaks.
I did not know a tr4a did not have a hole in the block for the vent tube. I thought the hole was plugged and could be removed to fit a vent tube.
Steve
Anyways this time I will not remove the bear plate and will see how the bridge is and go from there. Separating the small bridge piece from the bear plate gasket should not be too difficult if need be, but those are my famous last words some time. if removeal of the bridge piece become problematic, I should be able to seal the front of the bridge piece and bear plate with the same RTV used on the ends. The ends on the bridge piece are where a leak could easily be, so at some point the bridge piece probably needs to come out when chasing oil leaks.
I did not know a tr4a did not have a hole in the block for the vent tube. I thought the hole was plugged and could be removed to fit a vent tube.
Steve
charleyf
Luke Skywalker
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The TR4A engine that I am using in my TR4 does have the vent tube hole. Which I removed the plug and am using it with the vent tube. So at least some did have the hole ( plugged) in the block.
Charley
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RJS
Jedi Warrior
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OK, not sure it shows in these pictures but, a lot of work went into cleaning up the oil pan. Removed all the oil RTV Black Max. Used acetone to soften it, a razor to scrape most and then finally a wire wheel to lightly/carefully remove the last bits. Then removed remainder of old paint. Then spent most of yesterday on the work bench straightening the pan. When I did this 8 years ago, the pan was straight. Simply shocking how bent it got when I remounted with the cork gasket which is 3/16" thick (mistake #1), used RTV (mistake #2) and then torqued to spec at 18 lbs-ft (mistake #3). I will not be repeating those.
Flattening the pan took several hours with various tools (straight edges, large ball peen hammer, small ball peen hammer, 15mm socket, wood dowels I made). But, checking with a long straight edge, I was able to get it flat to under 0.008" in all places, and less than 0.006" in most. The corners were by far the hardest (it is nearly impossible to get it flat to satisfy the long edge of the pan and the short edge of the pan at the same time - if that makes any sense). Then finally cleaned it up by lightly sanding with 400 grit and then going over it with a Scotch pad.
When I re-mount, I plan to go with a paper gasket, torque to only 10 lbs-ft and only dress the front sealing block (likely with Permatex #2 80015) and the the corners (for reasons noted above) (likely with Permatex #3 80019 (equivalent to Wellseal) or Permatex Permashield 85420 (equivalent to Hylomar). The rest of the gasket will go on "dry". If that doesn't work, at least it will be easy to pull down again next time.
Now I just need a day where the humidity isn't 100% so I can shoot the paint. I plan on using Eastwood 2K Hi Temp Ceramic Engine paint. Oh, and I still need to clean the block - that should be a good few hours of fun under the car...
Pictures attached of pan and fasteners. Those are grade 5 bolts with flat washers and lock washers.
Bob
Flattening the pan took several hours with various tools (straight edges, large ball peen hammer, small ball peen hammer, 15mm socket, wood dowels I made). But, checking with a long straight edge, I was able to get it flat to under 0.008" in all places, and less than 0.006" in most. The corners were by far the hardest (it is nearly impossible to get it flat to satisfy the long edge of the pan and the short edge of the pan at the same time - if that makes any sense). Then finally cleaned it up by lightly sanding with 400 grit and then going over it with a Scotch pad.
When I re-mount, I plan to go with a paper gasket, torque to only 10 lbs-ft and only dress the front sealing block (likely with Permatex #2 80015) and the the corners (for reasons noted above) (likely with Permatex #3 80019 (equivalent to Wellseal) or Permatex Permashield 85420 (equivalent to Hylomar). The rest of the gasket will go on "dry". If that doesn't work, at least it will be easy to pull down again next time.
Now I just need a day where the humidity isn't 100% so I can shoot the paint. I plan on using Eastwood 2K Hi Temp Ceramic Engine paint. Oh, and I still need to clean the block - that should be a good few hours of fun under the car...
Pictures attached of pan and fasteners. Those are grade 5 bolts with flat washers and lock washers.
Bob
Attachments
Sounds like an excellent plan to me. The oil pan is beautiful plus you have an excellent assistant.
I am not sure what to think about the bolt holes. I have been using the old bolts and feared the oil was going down the treads of the bolts and weeping out. I for one am waiting to see what happens, good luck and I think you have done about all you can to prevent a leak.
steve
I am not sure what to think about the bolt holes. I have been using the old bolts and feared the oil was going down the treads of the bolts and weeping out. I for one am waiting to see what happens, good luck and I think you have done about all you can to prevent a leak.
steve
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RJS
Jedi Warrior
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OK, been way too long...my last post was over a month ago. A confluence of items got in the way and limited my time under the hood (including summer vacation which took me out of town for two weekends). So frustrating because I missed some prime driving season.
I finally got the pan painted with Eastwood 2K high temp epoxy primer (2 coats) and 2K epoxy engine paint (see photo). Decided not to touch the sealing block. Decided to use the Payen oil pan gasket. Payen part no. HC016. Moss Motors part no. 692-000. The face of the gasket was also marked with "Interface Performance Materials N-8092".
Applied a thin film of Permatex 85420 Permashield Fuel Resistant Gasket Dressing & Sealant (equivalent to Hylomar Blue) on the pan, the block and both sides of gasket. Torqued oil pan bolts to 5 lbs-ft, 10 mins later to 7.5 lbs-ft. 24 hours later to 10 lbs-ft. Installed oil pan drain plug – used Permatex 80631 (14A) Thread Sealant with PTFE. Torqued firmly snug but, not overly tight.
Waited 48 hours. Filled her up with 5 qts Valvoline VR1 20W-50. Measured to 1/3rd from bottom line on dipstick. Pulled the spark plugs, spun the motor until I got oil pressure (50psi after 15 seconds spinning on the starter). Installed plugs, fired up instantly. Idled for 15 mins and pulled back in garage. Will take for a longer drive tonight and report back
Bob
I finally got the pan painted with Eastwood 2K high temp epoxy primer (2 coats) and 2K epoxy engine paint (see photo). Decided not to touch the sealing block. Decided to use the Payen oil pan gasket. Payen part no. HC016. Moss Motors part no. 692-000. The face of the gasket was also marked with "Interface Performance Materials N-8092".
Applied a thin film of Permatex 85420 Permashield Fuel Resistant Gasket Dressing & Sealant (equivalent to Hylomar Blue) on the pan, the block and both sides of gasket. Torqued oil pan bolts to 5 lbs-ft, 10 mins later to 7.5 lbs-ft. 24 hours later to 10 lbs-ft. Installed oil pan drain plug – used Permatex 80631 (14A) Thread Sealant with PTFE. Torqued firmly snug but, not overly tight.
Waited 48 hours. Filled her up with 5 qts Valvoline VR1 20W-50. Measured to 1/3rd from bottom line on dipstick. Pulled the spark plugs, spun the motor until I got oil pressure (50psi after 15 seconds spinning on the starter). Installed plugs, fired up instantly. Idled for 15 mins and pulled back in garage. Will take for a longer drive tonight and report back
Bob
Attachments
On my car, the oil leak I have has driven me mad, and I did not have far to go to madness anyway, so I do not have any answers. My thoughts now are the timing chain cover seal is leaking so much that the oil is traveling from the front of the engine to the back as I drive.
A while back one of guys suggest, I could purchase some of the florescent dye for detecting leaks with a black light at the neighbor parts store where the AC stuff is. I have never tried the dye, but I should give it a try in this case
Thanks Steve
A while back one of guys suggest, I could purchase some of the florescent dye for detecting leaks with a black light at the neighbor parts store where the AC stuff is. I have never tried the dye, but I should give it a try in this case
Thanks Steve
OP
RJS
Jedi Warrior
Offline
Hi All
Just to report back, I've driven about 80 miles with the new oil pan gasket. There was a tad bit of oil on the pan but, no drips/drops. I re-torqued the bolts at 10 lbs-ft just to be sure. I will say, all the bolts tightened a bit more (maybe having been through a couple of heat cycles). It was not obvious the oil was coming from the pan. There was a decent coating of oil on bottom of the oil filter housing. I checked the torque on those (22-24 lbs-ft). The bottom-most bolt definitely was not to spec and took about another 90 degrees with the torque wrench. I also suspect I need to renew the o-ring on the spin-on oil filter adapter. There was evidence of oil leaking there too (another project...). Last, my timing chain cover gasket and crank seal were renewed in 2017. I think those are still good but, it is possible I have a small leak on the front engine plate (which I have no idea how to re-new other than pulling the engine).
All in all, much less oil than before and I view this as positive progress. On positive note, there was zero evidence of any leaking from the rear main seal (scroll seal).
Will continue to report through the rest of the driving season here in CT
Bob
Just to report back, I've driven about 80 miles with the new oil pan gasket. There was a tad bit of oil on the pan but, no drips/drops. I re-torqued the bolts at 10 lbs-ft just to be sure. I will say, all the bolts tightened a bit more (maybe having been through a couple of heat cycles). It was not obvious the oil was coming from the pan. There was a decent coating of oil on bottom of the oil filter housing. I checked the torque on those (22-24 lbs-ft). The bottom-most bolt definitely was not to spec and took about another 90 degrees with the torque wrench. I also suspect I need to renew the o-ring on the spin-on oil filter adapter. There was evidence of oil leaking there too (another project...). Last, my timing chain cover gasket and crank seal were renewed in 2017. I think those are still good but, it is possible I have a small leak on the front engine plate (which I have no idea how to re-new other than pulling the engine).
All in all, much less oil than before and I view this as positive progress. On positive note, there was zero evidence of any leaking from the rear main seal (scroll seal).
Will continue to report through the rest of the driving season here in CT
Bob
OP
RJS
Jedi Warrior
Offline
Hi All
Reporting back after 200 miles driven. Car runs like a champ but, unfortunately, still have oil drips. Will continue to investigate as time allows this Fall. The rear engine seal looks nice and dry. But, engine oil definitely drips from the bottom of the clutch slave (I think it may be coming from the oil pan down the slave cylinder stay rod). I am thinking a few ideas:
Bob
Reporting back after 200 miles driven. Car runs like a champ but, unfortunately, still have oil drips. Will continue to investigate as time allows this Fall. The rear engine seal looks nice and dry. But, engine oil definitely drips from the bottom of the clutch slave (I think it may be coming from the oil pan down the slave cylinder stay rod). I am thinking a few ideas:
- 10 lbs-ft torque may not be sufficient on the pan (recall factory spec is 18-20 lbs-ft)
- My leaks are coming from elsewhere (the pushrod tubes on the cylinder head always look damp)
- Or, I may just be getting to much blow-by in the block and need to add a block breather
Bob
I would not re-torque right now because sometimes the leak is worse after that. I find the leaking oil pan a real challenge. I do not have any knowledge about unstock breather systems. My experience on stock engines is kinda ok because they seem to always appear to leak. My car that leaks the least, I believe leaks out the open air breather and then spreads out over the bottom of the pan. This leak might be a quart in 2,000 miles.
Steve
Steve