Mystery Squeak in Rebuilt Engine

[Brosky]

Are you going to show us a few pictures soon?

 

[davidk]

Sounds like you're on the right track with reprogramming the chip. I think mine was done 5 times to get it just right. I also noticed on Rick's website that he now calls for 12 psi to the injectors. You might try turning it down and see what happens.

 

[philman]

Will the oil pressure switch cut out the injector circuit? Maybe the oil pressure circuit is timing out at about 10-20 seconds and killing the fuel flow.

 

[Brosky]

All of this work and tweaking is why I MAY go to the Keihin setup by Pirace next year.

I'm sure that ultimately, some form of FI is optimal, but I'm looking for more simplicity.

 

[elysium]

Well,another 5 hours today and no real answer. We still pretty firmly believe the chip is faulty or mis-programmed. Finally reached a tech at Affordable FI who supplies the electronics to Patton. Tech quickly aknowledged that Rob probably knew more about the ECM and sensors then he did and directed us to the owner who programs chips etc to try to trouble shoot. Unfortunately he was in transit via airline in one of the last bastions of mostly unreachable states left today. The rep did reach the owner and we tried to use the laptop to troubleshoot but we couldn't get the program working correctly.Tomorrow we anticipate reaching the owner and finally figuring out this mystery.
While at the shop today a 350Z was brought in with inoperable windows. An electronics guru there at the time informed us that there are computers in both doors to operate the windows and that one computer has to talk to the other to get the second to ok the operation of the window!!!!!! On another recent job (on a Ford I believe) he told me that a customer had to shell out $900.00 to replace the body computer to get his wipers to work-maybe these old cars have the right idea after all

 

[Brosky]

My thoughts exactly, but remember, you've got a good tech and I'm sure he'll work it out in a short time.

 

[Guest]

I read your reply and went to the link. I have one question though.... you imply that bronze is better that a steel backed washer with a thin layer of brass topped with babbit material. What engineering data proves that? Also, the fact remains the rod and main bearings all have severe loads put on them and they are the same material as the original design thrust washers. In addition, oil forms a mighty tough film on these surfaces and I interpret the implication as the bearings sometimes might run dry.... if they do, the bronze is no better than babbit coated brass. Things get wasted in a hurry. This bearing design is identical to the 21,22, and 22RE engines in millions of Toyotas....and the bearings have come out and caused crank-to-block contact.... but only in the event of compromised lubricant/oil. And that will likely happen with bronze. Furthermore, the implication that a light flywheel somehow reduces stress on this bearing strikes me wrong. Inertia is the only thing that the lighter flywheel reduces so that the engine may rev faster... and it actually increases crankshaft harmonic distortion/vibration.....which would require a much larger dampener up front.

 

[Brosky]

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]you imply that bronze is better that a steel backed washer with a thin layer of brass topped with babbit material. What engineering data proves that?[/QUOTE]

Sherman, I see that you are new here. Welcome to the Forum.

This is an area of weakness in these otherwise strong engines. I take it that you have looked closely at the available thrust washers that are being supplied today? Have you actually examined them for quality and the amount of material on the surface? Perhaps you know of some that are much better, of which I don't, so you may want to share that information with us. Many of us here have looked at what's available and strongly feel that the Helm bearing is a better part than the currently available products and so did the machinist who did the work to my block.

I agree with you about the main and rod bearing construction and I indeed did use King Tri-Metal bearings in the engine as well. Unfortunately, the quality of the replacement thrust bearings are not even close to the King or Vandervel bearings.

I trusted the machinist to make the decision and for him it was an easy decision. That was good enough for me.

Every rotating part of my engine was machined and balanced to reduce vibrations as much as possible. What you say could be true about a heavier flywheel potentially helping to reduce crankshaft harmonic vibrations, I felt that with the additional balancing and machining work done, I was very safe in using the aluminum flywheel. I based my decision on the expressed experiences of many here and on the 6-Pack forum who have used aluminum flywheels without doing everything that I did and all were extremely happy with their results.

I have read your stated credentials and respect your opinions. You are entitled to your opinions and I am entitled to mine. I only post what I've done as a reference and it is not the end all of how to do anything.

Feel free to use whatever you want on any engine that you build and post the results for us to have as a reference. We're all here to learn and make our cars better. Perhaps you may be able teach us a way to do something better.

 

[tomshobby]

My engine is built similar to Paul's. I had mine balanced and blue printed only I used my original flywheel. A couple months ago I had to replace the throw out bearing and Paul convinced me to install an aluminum flywheel at the same time. Thanks Paul, a great improvement.

I also have the bronze tw's. I had a chance to compare tw's from two other suppliers at the time and both myself and my engine builder were convinced the solid bronze bearings were far better. I have well over 10,000 miles on the build now and even with my not-so-easy driving style I am really happy with the combination I have. With a look at the dip stick and a topping of the dash pots I am ready to (and do) put my theory on the road and go anywhere. Join me in keeping the head of your throttle stop bolt shiny!

 

[elysium]

We seemed to make some pretty good progress in our battle today. We spent quite a bit of time on the phone with AFI yesterday trying to diagnose the problem and get our laptop set up to run their monitoring program. Andy (on the tech desk) was not able to get us going but promised to hook us up with the owner and chip guru today.After wasting a few hours with no help today, we finally decided to try to get the program working ourselves and did finally manage to get the laptop talking to the car. We had also discovered that the front carb was not synced with the rear one or the TPS and got that squared away. We were able to get the car running for long periods of time and finally managed to start making adjustments to timing and vacuum issues . The car still runs very rich but I am sure we can correct this with a new chip to compensate for the different vacuum we are getting from the GP2 cam. We sent our data off to AFI and ordered a new set of platinum plugs in anticipation of finally getting to break in the motor and get on the road. Unfortunately we didn't hear back on the data by day's end but we will follow up asap and try to get the right programming.
Did also mange to get the driver's side of interior put back together with new carpet,re-conditioned seats,repositioned pedals,more rearward seat travel and a 13" Nardi wheeel and it fits beautifully now.Even more anxiuos than before to try this puppy out!!!!
I am a bit concerned now about that Rube Goldberg throttle linkage and problems we may have down the road. Any feedback on the RATCO linkage on a 2 Stomberg set up?
Lastly,not to usurp the role of cheif s-disturbur but the Helms thrustwashers seem infinitely better than standard ones. The entire unit is sacrificial rather than a very thin coating and with periodic inspection crankshaft damage should be a thing of the past.

 

[Brosky]

Glad to hear that you're making steady progress, albeit by doing it alone at this point.

Remember that the Ratco setup was originally designed for the twin carb setup for those who could no longer find parts to replace their worn out mechanical linkage that would bind and not allow for WOT. It just requires some bending to take all of the grief out of the triple carb's flimsy mechanical setup. The bracket is made to work for the twin carbs right out of the package, which is why I showed how it had to be bent for the trips in my write up.

So back to the main topic here. Is the mystery squeak still there or did the crank seal or water pump seal finally wear in?

 

[Guest]

Well, in spite of my didactic nature, I do appreciate the input from everyone. I built 1 TR6 engine and a TR250 engine recently. Both had many years and miles on the engines. Interestingly, both of the original thrust bearings in these cars were in good shape except for one thing.... they exhibited etching on the surfaces of the thrust, rod, and main bearings and on the bottoms of the lifters. Both cars were found to have high ground potential due to missing block to sheet metal grounds. I see this easily diagnosed oversight on so many triumphs that it amazes even this seasoned veteran. After I repair this simple ground issue, the cars run better, headlights are brighter, alternators charge better, and the horns no longer sound like some dying critter. At the Regional VTR show here in 2007, I was pushed aside from working on a 1964 TR4 that had suddenly died and been towed back to the hotel parking lot. The 3 "GURUS" were members of ours and another club. None of these 3 ply this trade for a living such as myself. But the owner of the car had more faith in the ability of 3 guys that were 1) an A/C Engineer 2)A marketing man and 3) a bean counter.....than in my certified credentials. So, I quietly gave these 3 guys the stage and microphone and silently handed the car's owner a business card..... and left. After they gave up, the car started and the owner was able to get the car the 5 or so miles to his home. The car refused to run at all after he got it home, so he had it towed to my shop..... I repaired 2 grounds and the car has started first time every time since then. I wonder how much electrolysis etching is on the bearings.... and if someone might confuse parts quality with some simple but devastating oversight such as high resistance ground. I attempt only to enlighten, not pose recalcitrant!

 

[Brosky]

If anyone were to argue the possibility of poor grounding in or on these cars, it would be sheer folly, in my opinion. No one can dispute you there. And to try to determine what has caused an engine component (i.e thrust washer) failure without knowing the entire history of the vehicles maintenance and care is difficult at best without costly chemical and metallurgical analysis.

With that being said, I was not analyzing (or as you might say, "confusing") any old parts removed from my engine (as my thrust washer were in pretty good shape for 57,000 miles) that may or may not have had electrolysis etching affect the wear, I was talking about brand new replacement parts, sold today, to replace those original parts when doing the rebuilding process.

I will say it again, I respect your credentials, but in case you might think that I fall into one of your three above mentioned categories of "GURUS", don't be fooled by my current occupation in my profile. I too held an ASE General certification from 1977 until 1995 when I left the automobile dealership business after 28 years of experience with Olds, Pontiac, Nissan, AMC/Jeep, Ford, Cadillac, Acura and finally Lexus. I didn't hold my technician or management positions with those companies because I was a dummy.

There are quite a few others here who are very experienced professional technicians, but just don't choose reinforce it on every posting.

This will be my last rebuttal to this topic and to you as well.

Respectfully,

 

[elysium]

The squeak seems to have diappeared. Seems most likely to have been something in cylinder 3,4 or 5. Both techs suspect it might have been a ring not quite seated or end gap off a bit making it a little tight. We did scope the cylinders as I noted before and didn't see anything out of the norm.Had we been able to run the engine right off it probably would have been much lees of an issue than it grew to be.When the engine was running today it actually sounded pretty good( very good to my untrained and anxious ear!)We managed to get pretty close to the timing suggested by Patton(8 vs 6) and had decent vacuum at @ 15" vs 18 or so we were looking for.At this point the plugs were so crapped up it was kind of amazing it ran at all ( arc welder iginition I am told) so it can only get better with some fresh platinums in it and I am pretty sure we will be directed to a chip programmed to run a bit leaner with the vacuum numbers coming off the GP2 we're running.
I hope to get it together early in the week and get the cam seated so I can actually start driving the fool thing.I couldn't believe how much the driving( or at least sitting) comfort has improved with the changes we have made. Part way throught the process I was in the car with the accelerator pedal @ 2 inches higher than the brake and I actually wasn't sure I would be able to drive the car.Seems very well arranged now with the pedals sorted out and the seat back and properly cushioned-actually a bit high but I suspect I will tamp it down a bit once regularly ensconsed in there.

 

[Guest]

Funny how this issue cropped up fom a digression.... Now, you folks are po'd at me.. goodbye

 

[Mickey Richaud]

SHEESH, people!

C'mon - Elysium's trying to get some help here, and we're attacking each other.

Can we salvage this?

Or do we start over?

Mickey

 

[Basil]

I just removed a number of posts that had nothing to do with the topic but were more personal in nature. Keep this thread on topic and keep the personal comments out of it.

Thank you.

 

[Guest]

Actually, I rebutted the statement you made that your machinist and you had a "strong feeling" that the bronze was better than today's stock replacement thrust washers.... by asking a legitimate question... What engineering data is there to validate this "strong feeling"? I am not attacking you, my fiend, nor your past credentials....Many years ago, one Smokey Yunik had a "strong feeling" that an exotic machining process to a chevy small block converting all bearing from babbit material to needle bearings would make huge horsepower increases due to friction reduction... He spent over 100K dollars on this engine only to realize just under a 5 horsepower gain.... He forgot what the oil film actually does for a living! How sad he didn't consult engineers for testing that theory in a less expensive manner. As far as my credentials go.... I've worked my ass off for them for 33 years. I strive daily to be THE absolute best I can be. And I apologize to no one for them... BTW... those photos of your engine job are super... you have a good guys the 2 who were instrumental in your engine job. I love your car, too!

 

[Brosky]

OK, let's put this to bed and get back to Elysium's problem, which is what Basil wants for this and all threads, staying on topic.

Thank you for the compliments of my car and website.

I will attempt to explain below with the only picture that I kept of the many that I took of the poor quality of the thrust washers that I had received. And this was one of the best. After that, I show the starting Helm washers that we made my final units from that are shown on my site.

I have no verified engineering data to back it up which is why I simply stated that Bob Mason and I and many others felt that the Helm bearing was a better alternative than what is shown below. For my engine I need no better data than that. Just like you, we, after looking at replacement engine parts for so long, can tell by looking just what you will or will not use. I'm sure that you've made many a decision based on gut instinct and practical knowledge gained over the years that did not come with a written report and that is what happened here. Nothing more and nothing less.

For the good of the Forum, let's just leave it at that and get back to the thread at hand. No offense taken and let's move forward from here.

 

[swift6]

What engineering data is there to validate this "strong feeling"?

That is a good question. But that is also part of the problem with our chosen obsession. There isn't a lot of engineering data to validate much of anything when you get away from stock specs or use new production replacement parts that are being made by cost determination, not accuracy to the original specs. Genuine NOS parts get harder and harder to come by so it will be a worsening problem. Forums like this one, and others like it, as well as mailing lists that are still active allow owners/operators/mechanics to get feedback on what has worked or what hasn't. It's not perfect but its all we have. "TheSearcherMan" has gone to some great lengths to identify and explore an issue with re-production camshafts as well as some issues with re-ground camshafts. The tappet hardness issue is another topic that has had much exploration. Even though I agree that he is the resident grump, :wink: HE has done the community a great service through his research. Contrary to what some might think, there isn't really an industry centered around our cars. There is business level support and at that level the access to critical R&D measures and proper engineering analysis is too costly to support. Many times, we the customer base, are the R&D support network.

Many listers here go to great lengths to document their work, their findings, their trials and tribulations for the benefit of the community. In many cases, these documentations are the most extensive data collected on the topics/items. Sad but its true. Like I said above, their is no industry level support for these cars.

In regard to thrust washers, they have been a documented weakness not only in TR6 engines but Spitfire 1500 engines as well. As they are cousins in design, it shouldn't be a surprise that they share a weakness. Like you, I have never had the thrust washers fall out on my TR6, either engine, but I have seen plenty that have. "Fixes", like the one that Paul used, have been long discussed in the TR6/Spitfire world. Many choose to take their chances with the old way and the current replacement parts. Some don't.

I suppose that's my $.02 for now though.