My recent decision regarding oil in a '66 3000 with a rebuilt engine

[Keoke]

There was a time when this was true, but no longer. ZDDP is not 'special'. It is required by our flat tappet engines and used to be included in the normal oils we used a few years ago but no longer is.

Yep Steve:
N Like I said earlier your flat tappets will love you too.--

 

[PHulst]

Castrol EDGE is a 5W-50 synthetic that has sufficient ZDDP levels. It's available in the US. I don't know about the UK.

Yep. I've just put it into a car I work on, and look forward to seeing if the owner notices anything through the summer.
I also bought some for one of my own cars, should I get around to getting it out of storage this year.

 

[why]

Some years ago in the same issue I did a search on zinc and zddp and in fact it was the Gibbs racing team that concluded except for break-in of rebuilt engines this stuff is of no help, long ago I learned "a difference that makes no difference is no difference." My new Vantage V8 requires 10-60 synthetic and that is what I will use. So far an aggregated just about 100,000 miles over 5 '49-'67 UK cars each owned for at least 20 years and using big box name brands 20W through 50W in various combinations can not recall one problem oil related. Healey is a wonderful car to drive, I love it dearly, but from a metallurgy, engineering standpoint it is archaic, not special in any way from a Ford or Chevy of period and if you want to treat it as special fine, but the intellectual gymnastics gone through to justify it, I repeat, "a difference that makes no difference is no difference."
Jay, '65, 3000.

 

[Healey Nut]

Some years ago in the same issue I did a search on zinc and zddp and in fact it was the Gibbs racing team that concluded except for break-in of rebuilt engines this stuff is of no help, long ago I learned "a difference that makes no difference is no difference." My new Vantage V8 requires 10-60 synthetic and that is what I will use. So far an aggregated just about 100,000 miles over 5 '49-'67 UK cars each owned for at least 20 years and using big box name brands 20W through 50W in various combinations can not recall one problem oil related. Healey is a wonderful car to drive, I love it dearly, but from a metallurgy, engineering standpoint it is archaic, not special in any way from a Ford or Chevy of period and if you want to treat it as special fine, but the intellectual gymnastics gone through to justify it, I repeat, "a difference that makes no difference is no difference."
Jay, '65, 3000.

Like I said , fill it with castrol 20/50 and drive it like ya stole it !!!

 

[RAC68]

John,

The Mobil 1 oil that was specifically designated for gasoline automobile engines with flat tappets is 15W50 and, although others oil designations did have varying but sufficient amounts of ZDDP, they were specifically formulated for Diesels, Turbo Diesels, Motor Cycles with wet and dry clutches, and Racing. In each case, these oils seem to be profiled for a particular environment and not recommended for general automotive use (as in our Healeys). Although I would consider other Mobile 1 (or other brand) oils designed to address non-gasoline automotive environments, I am not knowledgeable or confident enough in the available web data to make an educated decision that would seem to counter the manufacturer.

How did you determine the Mobil 1 5W50 had the proper formulation for our Healey engines?

Thanks and all the best,
Ray(64BJ8P1)

 

[John Turney]

Some years ago in the same issue I did a search on zinc and zddp and in fact it was the Gibbs racing team that concluded except for break-in of rebuilt engines this stuff is of no help, long ago I learned "a difference that makes no difference is no difference." ...
Jay, '65, 3000.

Jay, that's interesting. Week before last about 80 Healey owners met with a certified lubrication specialist from Joe Gibbs Racing at the Yosemite Healey Week. Lake Speed Jr., if you want to look him up.

Several years ago, that may was probably ok advice. Now, with the reduction of zddp in oils, he indicated that it needs to be replenished to prevent excessive wear of our flat-tappet cams. It's still most important for break-in, but it wears away and competes with detergents for sites on the wearing (cam & tappet) surfaces.

 

[John Turney]

John,

The Mobil 1 oil that was specifically designated for gasoline automobile engines with flat tappets is 15W50 and, although others oil designations did have varying but sufficient amounts of ZDDP, they were specifically formulated for Diesels, Turbo Diesels, Motor Cycles with wet and dry clutches, and Racing. In each case, these oils seem to be profiled for a particular environment and not recommended for general automotive use (as in our Healeys). Although I would consider other Mobile 1 (or other brand) oils designed to address non-gasoline automotive environments, I am not knowledgeable or confident enough in the available web data to make an educated decision that would seem to counter the manufacturer.

How did you determine the Mobil 1 5W50 had the proper formulation for our Healey engines?...

Ray,

Oils with an API rating starting with S are for gasoline engines (S stands for "spark). Oils rated for diesels have an API rating starting with C (C stands for compression). The additive packages are formulated and blended to match the type of engine. Specifically, the zddp for diesel engines is designed for high temperature stability and "activation" at higher temperatures. Gasoline engines do not get hot enough to adequately activate "diesel" zddp. During the activation process, the organic parts of the molecule react with the sulfur in the zddp to bond to the metal surface. So, in short, use an oil with an API S* rating.

As for the amount of zddp, there are two ways of telling: zinc and phosphorus are at least 1,200 ppm, or the concentration of zddp is over 1%. The concentration of zinc and phosphorous in the Mobil 1 15W-50 meet the "1,200-rule". Castrol EDGE 5W-50 lists zddp on it's Safety Data Sheet (SDS, formerly MSDS) as 1% to 3%, because they don't want to give away their actual composition. If the zddp concentration is less than 1%, it won't be listed at all. Until recently Castrol GTX 20W-50 used to list zddp on it's SDS. Now that it doesn't, I've dropped it off the recommended list.

Other parts of the additive packages contain detergents and dispersants. These keep parts clean and help the oil carry contaminants away from the metal parts and into the oil pan. Racing engines have less of these because racing engines don't run for long periods between rebuilds. So, racing oils should be avoided, unless you're racing and tearing your engine down at regular intervals. Some oils, like Valvoline VR-1 20W-50 are meant for both uses because Valvoline puts enough detergent in them.

As for motorcycle oils for wet clutch applications, I have just recently heard of them, so I can't say if they would be satisfactory for old Austin engines. They might be good for old Laycock de Normanville overdrives, though.

The question of using 20W-50, 15W-50 or 5W-50 viscosity oil is based on the viscosity at hot and cold temperatures. At 100C, 50 grade has a viscosity of 16.3 to 21.9 cSt (centi-Stokes or mm^2/sec). At 20C (68F), that oil would have a viscosity probably in excess of 500 cSt. Consequently, it doesn't flow as well. Flow is key in preventing wear. Hence the move toward lower cold viscosities. To get multiple viscosities in mineral (dino) oil, they start with low viscosity base oil and add viscosity index improvers (VII) to get the multiple viscosity ratings. Problem is, these VIIs break down under high shear and the 20W-50 oil tends to be come 20W-40, then 20W-30, ..., losing its desired viscosity at operating temperature. The VIIs have been improved over the years, but it's still an issue. With synthetic oil, they start with 50 grade base oil and can modify to molecules so it retains the hot viscosity indefinitely.

Hope that helps.

 

[steveg]

John T -
Thank you for taking the time to post detailed explanations with sources. These are fluid :fat: topics and citing sources helps move the group knowledge base forward.

 

[steveg]

From urbandictionary.com:
Like I Said
Texting: LIS. (ph) a rude, passive-aggressive phrase, usually found at the beginning of a response, that lets someone know that they didn't listen to you. Done in convo with subordinates or anyone you disdain, because being polite to these people 'doesn't matter'. Often found in abbreviated form in response emails and texts, as LIS, indicating you think the person hasn't read or understood your post.

Their words, not mine...

 

[DerekJ]

'Like I said fill it with Castrol 20W/50 and drive it like I stole it.'

Very helpful and enlightening, do you have any more of these pearls of wisdom?

 

[DerekJ]

Jay

Where did anybody say a Healey was any different from a Ford or a Chevy? All that is being said is that there are better oils out there than mineral 20W/50. You don't agree, you don't use it, great, so everybody's happy.

 

[RAC68]

John,

Your response was VERY helpful. I never thought the subject of OIL would become one of our most complex and obtuse subjects and its selection as difficult as it has become. You mentioned a list of acceptable oils with sufficient ZDDP content, is it in a form that could be posted?

Thanks again,
Ray(64BJ8P1)

 

[steveg]

John,

Your response was VERY helpful. I never thought the subject of OIL would become one of our most complex and obtuse subjects and its selection as difficult as it has become. You mentioned a list of acceptable oils with sufficient ZDDP content, is it in a form that could be posted?

Thanks again,
Ray(64BJ8P1)

One of Lake Speed's points was the "bigs" change their formulations often and without notice, so we'll need to keep vigilant on the zddp content. This is not a "set it and forget it" situation.

PS - love that name. Forgot to ask him if his nickname is "Dry".

 

[Keoke]

You spot on Derek J-------

 

[HealeyRick]

PS - love that name. Forgot to ask him if his nickname is "Dry".

His Dad was a former NASCAR driver and team owner. Perfect last name.

This discussion has been interesting, not for the big Healey because it's roller cammed Ford motor lives happily on Mobil 1, but I do have the bugeye with its original 948 motor. As was pointed out above, who knew a simple thing like oil could get this complicated? For my original bugeye I had in high school it was as simple as going to the Benny's store (a local discount hardware and auto store) and buying a gallon of their cheapest house brand dino juice. That will give you a good idea of the condition of that motor. The old high school joke at the gas station was "Gas, water and oil, please ... a gallon of each."

 

[John Turney]

One of Lake Speed's points was the "bigs" change their formulations often and without notice, so we'll need to keep vigilant on the zddp content. This is not a "set it and forget it" situation.

PS - love that name. Forgot to ask him if his nickname is "Dry".

Yes, Ray and Steve,

This is not a set it and forget it situation. I have to check it every year when I go buy oil. Today's selections:

Local auto store selections:

• Valvoline VR-1 20W-50, a mineral oil, probably best if you have never overhauled your engine.
• Mobil 1 15W-50, a synthetic, better cold lubrication than 20W-50.
• Castrol EDGE 5W-50, another synthetic, better cold lubrication than 20W-50.

There are other specialty oils that are available at some shops or online. I haven't researched them completely, but I know Joe Gibbs Driven, Penrite, and Millers advertise they have the correct oils for Healeys and similar cars.

 

[DerekJ]

John

Castrol Edge 5W/50, we don't get that either and its a British company!

 

[RAC68]

John/Steve,

I appreciate that the information on oil characteristics is very fluid with much of the info gained from the web dating back as much as 10 years. That was my concern. However, the information and direction provided in John's explanation post provide a way to find and interpret the latest information like identifying that Castrol Edge 5W50 indicated the content of ZDDP by giving a percent range for its chemical name and didn't include this category in other Edge oils.

Again, thank you for providing a level of understanding that I can work from.

All the best,
Ray (64BJ8P1)

 

[John Turney]

John

Castrol Edge 5W/50, we don't get that either and its a British company!

That's ok, we don't get many of your oils either, like Castrol 20W-50 classic.

 

[HealeyRick]

If I had a choice, I'd run Castrol R in everything, the smell is heaven. I'd even consider a dab behind each earlobe in the hopes it would attract the woman of my dreams (Ssshh. Don't tell my wife.)