My recent decision regarding oil in a '66 3000 with a rebuilt engine

[DerekJ]

Steve,

Over here I think the 60 is too heavy, we rarely get very hot weather and unless you are racing the oil is going to be at normal operating temperatures and that calls for only a 30 weight, or maybe 40.

 

[EV2239]

All through the sixties 20W50 was the recommended oil for Healeys and now with a low overall top gear and lots of motorways, 10W60 will virtually eliminate wear, so I use it and it is recommended for our cars by Mobil.

 

[RAC68]

Hi All,

After reading Derek's post on oil, my intention was to find a lower viscosity cold-test oil that would eliminate dry startups. However, I also was advised by the group and the documents I read that additives like ZDDP at a level of 1200 ppm were necessary for your flat tappets, Since most new synthetic oils have eliminated this additive or drastically reduced it in its formula and the effectiveness of 3rd party add-ins being questioned, I was ready to pay the high price of Castrol Synthetic Racing 20W50 (the oil that was in the car).

However, again, another article on the net seemed to indicate this was not as good as I had hoped for my occasional but aggressive use and its formula did not incorporate a detergent as it was specifically for racing. Although I could not verify this fact, it was another deterrent and, when added to the price, made me hesitate further.

As a result, I decided on Mobile 1 15W50. This oil does have a little less cold temp viscosity ith a sufficient high temperature resistance and, with 1200 PPM ZDDP in its formulation, is recommended for our flat tappet engines. Additionally, as apposed to Castrol Racing's high price, I purchased (2) 5Qt containers for $22.83+tax each.

Oil has become a definite pain to choose and something I never though would require as much consideration. Will this Mobile 1 formulation be available at my next oil change...who knows?

Just thought I'd complete the circle,
Ray(64BJ8P1)

 

[DerekJ]

Ray,

Do you mean Mobil 1 and if so I believe that is a fully synthetic oil and the price you have paid is a steal compared to over here. After further research I have come down to three possibilities each in a different oil type category.

Basic Mineral Oil - Valvoline 20W/50 Racing

Semi Synthetic (group 3 oil) - Millers 20W-50 Sport

Fully synthetic (group 4 oil) - Mobil 1 10W-60 ( I still believe 60 is too thick but thats the only Mobil1 option we have over here with the required ZDDP levels (assuming you believe those levels are necessary)

 

[RAC68]

Hi Derek,

Yes, I do mean Mobil 1 15W50. Additionally, I also meant Valvoline VR1 Synthetic Racing 20W50 and not Castrol (the Castrol was used in my TR7). The only 10W60 I could find here was Castrol Edge full synthetic for $13/Quart and I also felt the 60 was too high. I would have preferred a synthetic 5W40 but could not fine anything near this viscosity profile with an adequate level of ware additives (i.e. ZDDP) incorporated within its formula.

Thanks for taking the time to indicate the correction.
All the best,
Ray(64BJ8P1)

 

[EV2239]

Could someone give me a list of modern engines, cars and bikes that don't have flat Tappets.

Mobil 1 10W60 is recommended for our cars as far as I'm aware.

 

[RAC68]

EV2239,

I appreciate and share your frustration with the selection of Oils and lubricants. Back when oil choices were fewer and 60,000 miles was a lifetime for a car, it was easy to select the lubricant from the choice of 10W30 or straight viscosity oils available. Today, it is difficult to determine the metrics used to evaluate the oil and what additives were used as part of its base formulation.

Derek posted an article that caused me to wonder what factors I was really choosing and why. Since the numbers 0,5,10, ... 50, 60 seem to be somewhat relative designations within the context of a set of testing criteria (SM, SN, etc), I do not have a good feel for what any of this means. When looking at your choice, 10W60 synthetic, what is the actual viscosity in a well maintained Healey engine during an aggressive drive on a hot Summer's day and how does it compare to a choice of a 10W30 mineral oil (the modern oil recommended when I first purchased my Healey)? Who knows? If oil flow is the important factor and pressure relates to resistance to flow, why are we so fixated and calmed by having relatively high gauge readings at speed when many of our more modern cars don't even have a gauge (but do monitor oil flow electronically)?

I appreciate that your Mobil 1 10W60 seems to have a higher hot engine oil viscosity then a 10W30 but maybe the test providing the 60 designation for a synthetic only differs less than 1 or 2 (of what ever the test designation is) from a similar lower profiled oil. So, what does this mean? Is 60 too high as Derek feels? Who knows anymore. Since 10W60 can be obtained in the UK and 15W50 is available in the US...are they the same oils designated under different tests?

My feeling, if as you say it was recommended for your Healeys, then use it and be happy. When you are ready to change the oil, I guaranty a new discussion will erupt and new factors will enter for evaluation.

Enjoy,
Ray(64BJ8P1)

 

[DerekJ]

Mobil 1 is recommended for our cars but the 10W - 60 is the only Mobil 1 oil they produce with ZDDP levels around 1200. I think they have used the widest range possible, up to 60W, so that they capture the whole market with just one product.

 

[Bob_Spidell]

... Since 10W60 can be obtained in the UK and 15W50 is available in the US...are they the same oils designated under different tests?...

AFAIK, all countries define 'viscosity' in the same way, using the same tests. Check out: https://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/411/oil-viscosity

 

[RDKeysor]

Gratifying read particularly since I just bought a case of Delo 5W-40 CJ-4 from Costco. Yeah, I really don't need the 5W here in Florida. Much of my oil seems to go to lubricating the floor or engine bay.

 

[why]

A Healey engine does just fine with pretty much any brand name oil of a general viscosity combining 20 and 40, no zinc or any other "special or your engine will blow-up" additives. It is a l950s-1960s engine design, big clearances. If I have some 10-40 lying around I use it as well, oil pressure fine hot or cold etc. etc. how about warming up the gearbox and diff on stands before driving, think about that one for a while. Relax and enjoy it is no different than a ford or chevy from that era in terms of engine oil, racing, fresh rebuild different story.
Jay '65 3000

 

[EV2239]

A Healey engine does just fine with pretty much any brand name oil of a general viscosity combining 20 and 40, no zinc or any other "special or your engine will blow-up" additives. It is a l950s-1960s engine design, big clearances. If I have some 10-40 lying around I use it as well, oil pressure fine hot or cold etc. etc. how about warming up the gearbox and diff on stands before driving, think about that one for a while. Relax and enjoy it is no different than a ford or chevy from that era in terms of engine oil, racing, fresh rebuild different story.
Jay '65 3000

Spot on! But don't tell anyone because.............

 

[John Turney]

We just went over all this at the California Healey Week in Yosemite week before last.

Yes,

... all countries define 'viscosity' in the same way, ...

if they use the SAE standard SAE J300. Bob now adds an ISO standard to the mix.
Viscosity grades are independent of API ratings like SM, SN, etc. SAE viscosity grades are defined at 100C (212F) by the following table:



No oil can be both 50 and 60 grade as the viscosity ranges don't overlap. The USA Mobil 1 product data guide doesn't list a 10W-60 grade oil. Apparently the one for the UK does. The USA Mobil 1 product data guide lists for 15W-50 lists:

• Brand Name: Mobil 1
• Viscosity: 15W-50
• Nominal Phosphorus Level, ppm: 1200
• Nominal Zinc Level, ppm: 1300
• Product Description: Boosted, higher viscosity, advanced full synthetic formula designed for performance vehicles.
• Recommended Consumer Applications: For high HT/HS applications. Racing and Flat tappet applications.
• API, ILSAC, and Other Industry Approvals: SN
• ACEA Approvals: A3/B3

Other high zinc/phosphorous Mobil 1 oils:

• Brand Name: Mobil 1 Racing 4T
• Viscosity: 10W-40
• Nominal Phosphorus Level, ppm: 1200
• Nominal Zinc Level, ppm: 1300
• Product Description: Advanced full synthetic formula designed specifically for motorcycles where clutch lubrication is also important.
• Recommended Consumer Applications: All motorcycles where 10W-40 is specified.
• API, ILSAC, and Other Industry Approvals: SN, JASO MA
• ACEA Approvals: none

• Brand Name: Mobil 1 V-Twin
• Viscosity: 20W-50
• Nominal Phosphorus Level, ppm: 1600
• Nominal Zinc Level, ppm: 1750
• Product Description: Advanced full synthetic formula designed specifically for motorcycles where clutch lubrication is also important.
• Recommended Consumer Applications: All motorcycles where 20W-50 is specified, especially V-Twin engines. [These are Harley-Davidson flat tappet engines.]
• API, ILSAC, and Other Industry Approvals: SJ
• ACEA Approvals: none

• Brand Name: Mobil 1 Racing
• Viscosity: 0W-50
• Nominal Phosphorus Level, ppm: 1750
• Nominal Zinc Level, ppm: 1850
• Product Description: Advanced full synthetic formula specifically designed to maximize engine protection under race conditions.
• Recommended Consumer Applications: Race Engines. Not recommended for street use.
• API, ILSAC, and Other Industry Approvals: none
• ACEA Approvals: none

 

[DerekJ]

Jay,

No zinc? Strange then that that zinc was deliberately added to the oil back in the day specifically to protect against wear. Of course you can use any general oil you want, its just that times have moved on and better options are available. A 'normal' 20W-50 mineral oil is virtually useless at start up when most wear occurs. Of course due to the limited usage of the cars the repercussions aren't seen for a much longer time. As oil is very cheap in the overall cost of running a Healey it makes sense to use the best available.

 

[Bob_Spidell]

.. A 'normal' 20W-50 mineral oil is virtually useless at start up when most wear occurs. ..

Implying, I presume, that a full synthetic is better at preventing startup wear? Synthetics are (mostly) superior to mineral oils, but I've never heard any claims that they provide better startup wear protection. When full-syn Mobil 1AV was first introduced for piston aircraft engines some A&Ps recommended against it, claiming that because syns are 'slipperier'--part of the reason they tend to leak out of gearboxes and sumps--they would run off cylinder walls quicker than mineral oil. In fact, mechanics usually recommend a straight mineral oil like aviation 100W--equivalent to automotive 50W--in the summer because it tended to stay on cylinder walls better than a multi-vis (straight or syn). Note that some of the data cited above states that Mobil 1 15W-50 has the requisite amounts of zinc and phosphorous which, if syns were inherently better at preventing startup wear, would not be necessary.

Mobil 1AV was a disaster for Mobil; it was discovered--why it didn't come out in R&D and testing I have no idea--that full-syns were worse at scavenging the lead used in avgas, causing lead buildup in the ring lands and loss of compression. Whether that is a fact or not is debatable, but quite a few owners got free engine overhauls which, for some of the big bore engines, can run $40K+. Now, one of the most popular aviation oils--at least last I checked--is Aeroshell which, IIRC, is a 15W- or 20W-50 synthetic blend, and my Mustang GT takes 5W-20 synthetic blend. It seems to me that the mineral-synthetic blends may have a lot to offer. Also, I believe I read somewhere that some of the claimed 'synthetic' oils are actually highly-refined mineral oils, a truth-in-advertising failure if ever there was one. It's probable--I have no data, anecdotal or otherwise--that the difference between a quality mineral oil and a synthetic doesn't justify the price difference, and both oils will accumulate combustion byproducts at the same rate, so I don't believe in extended oil changes.

Side note: Newer cars usually come with a manufacturer's recommendation for oil type and viscosity; abide by it (engineers usually have good reasons for specifying things). I've used Motorcraft 5W-20 synthetic blend religiously in my Mustang, and I'm glad I did because one of the weak spots in the engine are the timing chain tensioners. They are hydraulically activated and have plastic guides that the chains run in, and if they aren't pressurized ASAP at startup the chains can flap about and break the plastic guides, which, as you can imagine, is an expensive repair. I'm glad I fought the urge to 'use up' some 10W-30 I had; using a too-thick oil can cause the tensioner breakage.

I'm preparing to overhaul my BJ8's engine--it needs a clutch and shipwright's disease has infected me--and it will be interesting to see how it's worn as I've run mineral 20W-50 in it for the last 120K miles. Will also be interesting to see what detrimental effects, if any, running a PCV valve for the last 40-50K miles has had.

 

[steveg]

A Healey engine does just fine with pretty much any brand name oil of a general viscosity combining 20 and 40, no zinc or any other "special or your engine will blow-up" additives. It is a l950s-1960s engine design, big clearances. If I have some 10-40 lying around I use it as well, oil pressure fine hot or cold etc. etc. how about warming up the gearbox and diff on stands before driving, think about that one for a while. Relax and enjoy it is no different than a ford or chevy from that era in terms of engine oil, racing, fresh rebuild different story.
Jay '65 3000

There was a time when this was true, but no longer. ZDDP is not 'special'. It is required by our flat tappet engines and used to be included in the normal oils we used a few years ago but no longer is.

I attended the same presentation at California Healey Week by Lake Speed, Jr., certified lubrication specialist of Joe Gibbs Racing.

Major engine builders experienced a lot of ruined cams & tappets all of a sudden when the oil was changed to greatly decrease the ZDDP. He made many points - listing a few I can remember:

Zinc builds up so the benefit is still there for a while if you use a modern oil.
It needs to be part of the oil - the zinc additive makes some oils turn to jelly after a while. Stick to flat-tappet oils with around 1200ppm zinc. VR1, Lucas, Joe Gibbs HotRod. Zinc additives however are better than not having zinc.
The big companies do not care about our niche market and have and will change their formulations without warning.
Source info:
https://www.drivenracingoil.com/news/dro/about-us/473/

 

[EV2239]

FWIW

fully synthetic oils are all thinner when cold and get everywhere more quickly than slightly thick when cold ordinary oil on start up.
They also dissolve less easily in petrol, so your top rings stay lubed despite extra fuel from the choke.

They withstand higher temperatures and pressures in areas of greatest stress, so top rings and Tappets and they protect engines better in the event of overheating.

They stick to surfaces for longer which means surfaces are still coated after long periods of not being used.

They don't leak more easily, that's rubbish, but often have additives as well to "feed" seals and prolong their lives.

They reduce wear better than mineral oil if both are without Zinc.

Rolls-Royce announced that if you used synthetic oil after a rebuild of any of their engines, they'd never need rebuilding again and BMW stripped a 325i that had done a million miles on it and was still wishing spec. It virtually eliminates wear.

the upshot of all this is that Healey engines will last pretty well on mineral oil and longer on synthetic and that most engines have flat tappets. ��

 

[DerekJ]

EVV - I agree with all those points. My only gripe is that I wish Mobil were offering a 5W- 30, or 5-40 instead of the 10W-60 which is the only choice we have. I can't find any other fully synthetics in those grades that have the necessary ZDDP levels.

For those using mineral oils. Don't store them in cold places for prolonged periods of time as they deteriorate.

 

[John Turney]

Castrol EDGE is a 5W-50 synthetic that has sufficient ZDDP levels. It's available in the US. I don't know about the UK.

 

[Bob_Spidell]

FWIW

fully synthetic oils are all thinner when cold and get everywhere more quickly than slightly thick when cold ordinary oil on start up.
They also dissolve less easily in petrol, so your top rings stay lubed despite extra fuel from the choke.

They withstand higher temperatures and pressures in areas of greatest stress, so top rings and Tappets and they protect engines better in the event of overheating.

They stick to surfaces for longer which means surfaces are still coated after long periods of not being used.

They don't leak more easily, that's rubbish, but often have additives as well to "feed" seals and prolong their lives.

They reduce wear better than mineral oil if both are without Zinc.

Rolls-Royce announced that if you used synthetic oil after a rebuild of any of their engines, they'd never need rebuilding again and BMW stripped a 325i that had done a million miles on it and was still wishing spec. It virtually eliminates wear.

the upshot of all this is that Healey engines will last pretty well on mineral oil and longer on synthetic and that most engines have flat tappets. ��

I don't dispute that synthetic oil is superior to petroleum oil in almost all respects--and said as much--especially if you're towing a heavy load in your twin-turbocharged BJ8: https://towprofessional.com/article/synthetic-vs-petroleum/
I've not seen any data that proves synthetic oil is less soluble in gasoline than dino oil, but it sounds reasonable. If you post references I will read them.

You certainly can't go wrong using syn; but I think you should change it at least once/year regardless of mileage. Like I said, I'll be tearing down my BJ8's engine in the near future; we'll see what kind of wear 120K miles on dino oil caused. I don't race, but I run the car hard in all kinds of weather and environments, and change its oil once/year, usually at about 5K miles. Since I usually encounter a couple dust/sand storms on my trips, I feel having effective air filters--K&N--is more critical to reducing internal engine wear than using syn oil.

Surprised by the RR comments; I always thought turbine engines are all subject to mandatory inspections and overhauls--esp. of the 'hot section'--but, apparently you can run a RR jet engine forever without inspection or overhaul if you use synthetic oil (please post a link to their announcement). I put Redline MT-90 in my gearbox/OD, and it leaked more than it did with mineral oil, as measured by the dipstick and the puddles on my garage floor, but the gearbox seems to shift a little better and the OD is more responsive when hot (probably due to syn's indisputable thermal stability superiority).

re: "BMW stripped a 325i that had done a million miles on it and was still wishing spec" (presume you meant 'within spec?'). Impressive, but did they run an identical engine for a million miles on a quality petroleum oil? Without a proper control most anecdotal results are less credible. It's like global warming: the chemistry and physics are all but indisputable, and the empirical evidence is overwhelming, but we can't say with absolute certainty human CO2 production is the cause without a control planet identical to the Earth but without human-caused CO2 emissions (for the record, I'm a believer, but I wish we had a control planet).

Yep, slow day at work.