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Ignition timing help

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ichthos

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Hello Everyone,
I didn't know if I should start a new thread for this, but here goes. I had asked for help with the ignition system and carbs earlier. The advice to check the ignition system first before fooling around with the carbs was good advice. I found no leaks in the intake manifold, so I decided to go back to the ignition system before looking at the carbs more closely. I found that the points had almost closed competely - I must have not tightened the screw well enough. I reset the dwell to 35 degrees. But now my current problem: I adjusted the idle screw in both carbs (I used one of those tools with the little ball in a tube that presses up againt the carb to balance them), but can only get the engine to idle down to between 1,000 and 1,100 rpm. When I shine the timing light, it shows the timing at about 26 degrees BTDC at about 1,000 rpm. It is supposed to be at 4 degrees ATDC. I moved the distributer as far as I can, and that is the closest I can get. What do I need to do? Please talk in simple terms as I am just a beginner.
Thanks, Kevin
 
Hi Kevin, Generally when this type of situation occurs it indcates that the distributor drive gear and the cam's driving gear are improperly positioned.Beneath the distributor is a geared driving assembly that is driven off the cam.If you lift it up just enough to clear the teeth on the cam gear and rotate it carefully in the same direction you are moving the distributor one tooth at a time I think you will reach a point that will let you set the timing to its specified value.---Fwiw---Keoke
 
Thanks Keoke,
Before I do as you suggested, I found that the closer I get to the correct timing by moving the distributer, the worse it runs (idles rough). Will this fix that problem?
Kevin
 
Hi Kevin,
It's felt by many that a 6 will run better with "incorrect timing". Have you tried going with, say, 4-6 deg. BEFORE TDC? My experience is that it starts quicker and runs smoother. (it also caused it to idle a little higher but it's not a bad tade-off), maybe ya oughta give it a try...

Achtung
 
Sounds like you're using a timing light to try to set the timing to 4 degrees ATDC? Is that spec for a static timing -- if so the result you get with a timing light will be *much* different.

My apologies if this makes no sense -- I only work with 4-cyl TRs and only use static timing, not dwell or the timing light.

One other thing -- if you're using the dash tach to set the idle speed know that these can be off quite a bit. I always set timing static then tweak for optimum performance (hot engine, avoid ping, fastest idle... then set the carbs for smoothest low idle... in the end I don't concentrate on an exact number (degrees or rpm) just work for best all-around running.
 
Achtung, I am not able to get it below about 24 BTDCI without killing the engine. I am using the tach gauge to figure out my idle speed. Even if it isn't that accurate, it still sounds real high. I believe that the 4 degrees with 35 degrees dwell is correct. The book says to use 11 degrees for static timing. By the way Geo, why do you use static timing instead of using a dwell meter and timing light? I have owned a Ford falcon for the past 23 years, and that is the extent of my mechanical knowledge. I sure wish there were TR6 classes around here or on line. A lot of times I just use a book, look for the symptoms and do what the book says without really understanging the whole picture. This forum is the closest I have had to obtaining explanations I understand.

Kevin
 
First of all, let's get started correctly.

Have you checked completely to insure that there are NO vacuum leaks? It sounds like you are running lean and moving the timing back can stall you out there when it's warmed up. Get that can of carb cleaner out and start spraying around all of the hoses and connectors on the carbs and manifold when you're at idle. Something doesn't sound right here and when the idle goes up from the spray, you've found your leak.

Once you are sure there are no leaks, is the vacuum advance (and retard if installed) disconnected when you check the timing? If not, do so and plug the vacuum line and get your reading. Remember that the timing on these cars should be set at about 10-12 degrees BTDC at 850 to 950 RPMs, warmed up. The faster the idle, the further ahead the timing will read.

You say your dwell is 35 degrees. What is the actual gap on the points?

Let's go from there and see what you get.
 
"Every body" got after me for using a timing light and taught me the difference between static and dynamic. I still block off the vacuum line to the dizzy and set the timing around 8 BTDC for a reference. It is little doubt that the motor will idle too slow (actually cut off) as you come from 26 BTDC. Consequently, you need to step up the idle by adjusting the main idle adjustment screw as you come down from the 26 degrees keeping the RPM's around 600 to 800. (For the naysayers: I really don't think the centrifugal advance flyweights are swing out at that RPM level.
 
OK, I am totally frustrated. My car now runs even worse since I worked on it. I checked my point gap, then double checked my work by using a dwell meter (about 36 degrees as suggested by my Bentley manual.) I used static timing to make sure it was close (I hooked up a light to the neg coil and neg side of battery and turned distributer until the light came on.) When I hook up the timing light I am still off the scale, but I would guess my engine sounds best at about 26 BTDC (Bentley suggests 4 ATDC at 850 RPM). My car idles at about 1,200 RPM. It starts up quickly, but still sounds a slightly rough. When I take it out on the road and try to accelerate the trouble is apparent - it hestites and seems to have little power. I checked all vacuum lines for leaks, made sure the carbs were clean, checked the diphragms for holes, and checked to make sure the carbs were clean. I also made sure the dash pot oil was at the correct level. One person suggested taking the distributer out and moving it a tooth, but I don't understand what that will do or if it will help. I don't know if it matters, but the distributer was very loose when I bought the car. With my progress so far, I am worried about making it worse. Does anyone have any further suggestions?
Kevin
 
Kevin, I don't think that you can "move" the dizzy a tooth like you can in a Chevy or Ford. You can only move it 180 degrees. BUT, what you can do is rotate the plug wires on the dizzy one hole over in order to compensate the advanced timing... they might have been installed in the wrong place from the start.
 
If your trying to time it according to the marks on the damper pulley you need to verify that it's accurate. The rubber damper can crack and the timing marks can shift.
 
IchThos, What did you set first the timing or the dwell??.---Keoke
 
If the wires were all advanced one hole, would the car run any different? I just checked, and it does looks like I hooked up the wires correctly. I might try moving the wires one up and one down to see what happens. I'll have to wait until tomorrow at this point since it is dark, and I know I will be making my wife mad over obsessing over this car all day. Thanks for the suggestion.
Kevin
 
Kevin- Go down to kitchen,pour yourself and your wife a glass of wine and enjoy the rest of the night with her and start fresh in the morning!
Don
 
Hello Kevin,

one query, you say the manual says 35 degrees dwell, that sounds wrong, are you sure that it is degrees rather than percentage, both are used, you would need a chart to convert percentage to degrees?

If your car sounds OK at 26 degrees then you are close (forget the number, the mark must be wrong)
With the light hooked up, rev the engine to over 4,000 rpm just to check that it is advancing the timing (Vacuum advance disconnected) (By the way, the mechanical advance at 600 to 800 rpm on some models has some advance at that speed)
If it is advancing as you rev the engine, take it out for a drive and experiment with swinging the distributor a few degrees until you get the best performance.
A test drive is the only way, apart from a dynamometer, to get the best setting for your engine, especially as fuels have altered since the manufacturers originally set the specification.
Do a plug colour check just as a confirmation that there is nothing seriously amiss with the carburation.

Alec
 
I just wanted to throw something else in. You said you can't get your idle down below 1000. Seems to me that implies you do have some sort of air leak - you should be able to adjust the throttles all the way closed and kill the engine no matter what. Sometimes it is leaking throttle shafts. Sorry if I am going over ground that has been covered.

I also am in the 'road tune' camp. Set the points, get it running acceptably, then if it is pinging when you put your foot down under load and warmed up - retard the timing, if not, bump it up a little. You can leave the dist. clamp bolt semi-tight and adjust it on the side of the road.

And yes, the drive dog won't let you move the timing one tooth at a time. In fact, I don't think you can even get it 180 out - the two sides of the drive dog are different and it wouldn't go in.

Good luck. Pete
 
I suggested the air leak theory earlier and the only way to find it is with a volatile (carb cleaner) spray around intake and back to carbs. You can't fix the rest until that is done.
 
I did try spraying starter fluid around all vacuum lines, and there was no difference. I did not check the throttle shafts and will do so shortly.

The first time I tuned this car it was to just get it running after sitting for many years. I have a 6 cyl, 65 Ford Falcon I have owned for many years, and I figured they must be similar. I eyeballed the points after cleaning them and then just turned the distributer until it sounded right. I took it around town for a few trips over the last couple months but couldn't take it up to speed until I put my windsheild in a couple of weeks ago. When I finally got my car on the freeway, it ran ok, but it would sometimes ping when I climbed a hill. I figured my points must be slightly closed. It would also sometimes start "dieseling" when I shut it off. It had to idle high in town(1,500 RPM)to keep it running, and I would have to pull out the choke in town. I decided that I needed to be more accurate in setting the points and timing. The only things I have changed since making things worse is resetting the points, changing the timing (in that order), pulling off the tops of the carbs to check the diaphragms, and reducing idle/sychronizing the carbs. I read my Bentley and Haynes manuals late last night. Based on that, and the suggestions given, I am going to :1)check for leaks at the throttle shaft 2)check to make sure every spark plug is firing by holding each about 5mm from the block 3) try putting in a new condenser and points (People have questioned the point gap, but I doubled checked - Bentley says 35 degrees +/- 3 degrees or a 0.015" gap; please correct me if I am wrong) 4) static time my engine with the procedure outlined in Bentley.

I want you all to know I appreciate the advice. I have done everything suggested at this point except for trying to remove and place the distributer. It is obvious I am missing something, and even if the advice given doesn't fix it, at least it limits what could be wrong. And on a positive note, I guess I am learning more as I go through this.

Back to work. I'll get back when I have completed these tasks. Thanks again, Kevin
 
[ QUOTE ]
I suggested the air leak theory earlier and the only way to find it is with a volatile (carb cleaner) spray around intake and back to carbs. You can't fix the rest until that is done.

[/ QUOTE ]

This may not work on dual sidedrafts, but I think it's worth a shot. Try placing a shop rag over the carb opening. Do not stuff it in, just enough to restrict airflow a little. The engine will smooth out if you have a vaccum leak. Personally, I think the marks on the damper are off. $0.02 /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
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