Head gasket??

[Guest]

I would have valves removed, guides removed, boiled, leveled, new guides, valves ground, paint it preaty


Agree with all above that it may just be a durn head gasket.

The guy I bought my Monza from blew a gasket and had the head completely gone through and it smoked badly afterwards. A fresh 100% sealing head on old worn rings sometimes is a reciepe for trouble.

The only thing I would do other than have it cut, is do a quick light hand lap just to make sure the valves are still seating properly. Yeah, I know you can smack 'em in with a rubber hammer, but I like cleaned seats instead of a seat print.


Only way that I'd do the complete head is if I put new rings in ( in car) and all bearings (oil pump too).

Careful of the slippery slope or you might have some yard art for a while.

 

[bigjones]

Morris,
Thanks for the recommendation - is that Permatex stuff available at a parts place or did you special order it?

KellysGuy,
Now you got me worried but thanks for the advice - I'll prolly take it.

Just back from the machine shop . He confirmed that the head needed skimming and done a quick check on the valves for free. He hooked up compressed air and found at least 2 valves were marginal. Real nice guy - can't believe it was 10 years since I've been there.

Just waiting on the car's owner to see how we are to proceed.

Cheers!

PS. Is the Moss 1500 cylinder head gasket any good? I don't think I'll go with the "cylinder head kit", just the gasket.

 

[Guest]

I used Vb's cheapo gasket on mine. I ran it hot a few times w/ no trouble. That being said, I wish I would have opted for a better gasket but the VB's are so darn cheap.

 

[dklawson]

Adrian, I thought Hap commented earlier about head gasket selection but based on page one of this thread I must be remembering one of his posts on another thread.

My knowledge of the 4-cylinder Triumph blocks is spotty at best. However, I have been told that some of the 1500 blocks had sort-of spotfaces around the bore openings of the block. It is my understanding that those blocks perform best with the head gaskets having metal rings around the combustion chamber openings. For the engines with flat top blocks most people seem to recommend the Payen gaskets (which I presume to be similar to the Payen gaskets for the A-series engines). The black Payen gaskets should be used without any sealant as they have a coating on them already. For other (non-coated) gaskets I have used the spray copper sealant that Morris mentioned earlier.

 

[Morris]

I disagree with Doug on this one. I only use payen gaskets and found them as inclined to leak as other gaskets special coating our not. This is probably because my car has increased compression and the guys who did my block work are not that great it turns out...

I used the copper spray on my payen gasket which you can probably pick up at your local Napa. Doc says that there is another non-copper permatex spray that is much better for use with Payen gaskets, but I have not been able to find it locally.

I am told another nice side effect of using the sealing spray is that the surfaces are much easier to clean if you ever have to removed the head again. Hap says that you can reuse the gaskets, too, if you use the sealer spray.

 

[startech47]

K & W Copper Coat

 

[bigjones]

Many thanks for the replies!

I wish I would have opted for a better gasket...

Where can I buy the best gasket? I'm waiting on a return call from Moss as to the manufacturer and composition of their gasket.

had sort-of spotfaces around the bore openings of the block. It is my understanding that those blocks perform best with the head gaskets having metal rings around the combustion chamber openings.

Like this:

Also, unrelated, notice those marks on #1 piston. They correspond to marks on the head.

I noticed a small bolt missing from the Weber carb. You don't think the DPO... :laugh:

Hap says that you can reuse the gaskets, too, if you use the sealer spray.

Now you're worrying me - I don't plan ondoing this again. It looks like this engine has been upgraded to the flat top pistons and they are 0.020 oversize, thus raising the compression significantly, right?

K & W Copper Coat

Ha!
I used that exact same stuff on the all-copper head gasket for my TR3. Buttoned it back up and it still leaked. Randall (who else!) suggested Yamabond (obtainable from your Harley dealership) - that worked a treat, and still going strong after 10 years. My first attempt may not have been successful due to:
The copper kote
My inexperience
Other unknown factors.

Thanks again - will keep you posted.

Cheers!

 

[Guest]

Many thanks for the replies!

I wish I would have opted for a better gasket...

Where can I buy the best gasket? I'm waiting on a return call from Moss as to the manufacturer and composition of their gasket.

had sort-of spotfaces around the bore openings of the block. It is my understanding that those blocks perform best with the head gaskets having metal rings around the combustion chamber openings.

Like this:

Also, unrelated, notice those marks on #1 piston. They correspond to marks on the head.

I noticed a small bolt missing from the Weber carb. You don't think the DPO... :laugh:

Hap says that you can reuse the gaskets, too, if you use the sealer spray.

Now you're worrying me - I don't plan ondoing this again. It looks like this engine has been upgraded to the flat top pistons and they are 0.020 oversize, thus raising the compression significantly, right?

K & W Copper Coat

Randall (who else!) suggested Yamabond (obtainable from your Harley dealership) - that worked a treat, and still going strong after 10 years. Cheers!

Hehehe, the only way to keep an American motorcycle from leaking is using a product for Japanese bikes! Yamabond is good stuff !!! ( also avalible from your local Yamaha dealer. :wink: )

 

[dklawson]

I disagree with Doug on this one. I only use payen gaskets and found them as inclined to leak as other gaskets special coating our not. This is probably because my car has increased compression and the guys who did my block work are not that great it turns out...

I cannot comment on the effect of compression ratio on Payen gaskets. However, there is a trick to getting them to seal well (at least on A-series engines). The bizarre technique as told to me was to install the head, torque the bolts, adjust the valves... then start the engine... with oil but without coolant. As soon as you can feel the head getting warm, you turn off the engine and wait for it to cool completely before filling the cooling the system. I never had the courage to try this but it was relayed to me by Keith Calver specifically for the Payen gaskets.

 

[Morris]

You can pick up a payen head gasket here:

https://www.bpnorthwest.com/.sc/ms/...ponents/8332/Head Gasket Payen Spitfire 72-80

 

[bigjones]

Doug,
Yeah, too scary for me too!

Morris,
Thanks for the link but they are out of stock. :frown:

I got a call back on my answering machine from Lawrie Alexander (sp?) of Moss Motors. Their head gasket is a Payen, composite with steel core and fire rings around the combustion chambers (as Doug mentioned).

He says to spray it, both sides with 2 or 3 light coats of Copper Kote.

Torque it down in 10 ft-lbs increments. Get the engine up to operating temp and shut it down. Then re-torque to spec again (presumably with engine stone-cold?) Re-set valve clearances, of course.

(I was going to do a compression and leakdown test after the first torque down to see if things were OK before I fire the engine up - would this be a good idea or not?)

I've just put the order in for the gasket and stuff.

More news next Wednesday, I'm guessing, when the package arrives and I get to it.

Any comments, etc, most welcome in the meantime!


Cheers!

 

[bigjones]

Just heard from the owner and she tells me she has heard "pinging" lots of times.

I plan on refilling with premium gas (are those high compression pistons?)

I'll set the timing to 10 BTDC - there is zero anti-pollution equipment left in the car.

I'll set the valve clearances to 10 thou, cold. They were way tighter than that.

I'll put in some new NGK spark plugs, gapped at 25 thou. The originals (Autolight) were for some strange reason more like 15 thou.

Other than that, what else?

Cheers!

 

[Deleted member 8987]

Funny.
On flatmotors, with comp head gaskets (and 24 bolts per side), we never mill the heads.
The silly things are what, 1.125" thick with 24 bolts!

Two coats of Copper Coat, torque 'em, run until hot (water circulating), shut it down and re-torque HOT.
I have never, as in ever, blown a flathead head gasket, nor any of the engines I did for folks.

When it's hot, all the stresses are out of the block/head, and if you re-torqu hot, it holds.

Only way I could get some of those LBC's through the shop to hold a head gasket sometimes.
Of course, it's probably the wrong thing to do on an LBC.....

 

[bigjones]

The head gasket should arrive any day now.

Moss Motors Technical advises two coats of Copper Kote, install, warm the engine to operating temps. Shut down and immediately re-torque and re-set valve clearances, while still hot.

TOC says this works for the Harleys but I'm a bit wary of doing it on the 1500 Midget. It has flat top pistons (ie high compression, so a bit more critical situation with the head gasket, I would say)

What says ye all?

Cheers!

 

[Trevor Jessie]

I wouldn't torque while the head studs are hot. I think you risk over stretching the studs. Torque is just an indirect means of measuring the stretch and matching tension of a particular fastener.

 

[bigjones]

Thanks Trevor - I think I'll re-torque cold.

OK, more news:

I am extremely miffed. With the head and block cleaned, new gasket Copper Koted, studs wire brushed, I tighten down the head nuts in 10, 20, 30 ft-lbs increments. I start to tighten #1 at 40 ft-lbs and the durn thing starts spinning!

I carefully undo all the torquing in reverse order. I wire-brush off strings of metal off #1 stud. It looks like it came off the nut. Went to the store and got a bunch of Grade 8 nuts. Torquing down again, and up to the final 46 ft-lbs on #5 stud and it starts spinning!!

I'm thinking new studs are called for but I've just looked at the Moss Motors catalog and they are $10.55 each and there are ten of the buggers.

Tell me this ain't true!

 

[2091351]

ARP Studs are the best, but are EXPENSIVE!!!!

Good Luck!

Steve

 

[scoutll]

I had replace the studs on my 1098 when I changed the gasket last year. All were stretched slightly. I just bit the bullet and ordered new ones from Tony :frown:. Find someone on here who is a distributor. You'll save a bit.

 

[Guest]

Might be why it failed to begin with. Chane 'em and you'll never have to worry about them again; don't, and you'll pucker every time you run it.

 

[bigjones]

Steve and Tony,

Thanks for the replies.
Guess I need to calm down a bit.

Just wondering - what are my chances of getting all these studs out w/o snapping one off?

I think I can double-nut them all w/o taking the head back off. If I yank the head off. I'm worried about that gasket but if I do take it off I could possibly get some penetrating oil around the base of the studs.

Any opinions?