TR2/3/3A having no shame I ask another question about a TR3 engine that is giving me fits

[twigworker]

Every once in a while I run up on a problem and make the wise decision to ask others rather than spend the rest of my life figuring it out by myself.

Case in point...

TR3 engine

I inherited a basket case restoration in which the engine looked like it had been gone through and done up right, only to find that the cylinder head was trashed, the valve guides installed improperly and several of the mismatched push rods bent. Oh, and the cam followers were good only for shooting hoops into the scrap metal box.

In salvaging the situation I removed the oil pan and inspected the bearings and crankshaft and stared at the cam for a while. The crank, rods, pistons and all of the bearings look fine, and the cam itself looked to be new. I did manage to break the oil pump casting, please don't ask as it is really embarrassing, which I immediately replaced with one from Moss. In replacing it I did take the time to take it apart in order to make sure that it was clean and to pack it with petroleum jelly.

All of that stuff went back together without a hitch.

The cylinder head side was a HUGE bag of worms as noted above. The short version though is that the head was rehabilitated to a very high level of beauty, the push rods and valves and rockers and rocker shaft and cam followers were all carefully replaced with new stuff.

All of the usual stuff like cam timing checks, the liner deck height was measured, and all of that sort of thing was done.

The oil filter adapter was removed and inspected and a spin on filter kit was installed.

That is all background noise, but the meat of the matter is that I have not been able to get oil pressure.

Plenty of oil in the sump and spinning the engine with the starter produces nothing.

I have put together a cute little dash panel that is clamped to the frame rail. The body is off of the chassis, and the panel holds both the temperature gauge and the oil pressure gauge as I wanted to be able to observe the vital signs when I did the light up routine.

Now, using a battery to power the starter, the engine spins but there is no oil pressure being registered. There is also no oil flushing out of the filter head when the spin-on is off, and there is no oil coming out of the supply line to the gauge when it is disconnected.

As I say, the engine spins easily with the plugs removed and the distributor rotor turns as it should.

I have thought about this until my eyes have crossed and now I just want to hear from anyone who might have encountered same before I start taking the pan off and going through any gyrations that could be avoided.

Jack

 

[TR3driver]

Before dropping the pan, I'd remove the distributor, it's drive gear, and the shaft to the pump for inspection. Closest I've come to a situation like that is when the tang on the end of the shaft got twisted off. IIRC the shaft is located to the gear with a Woodruff key that may have gone astray during assembly.

Then I'd go ahead and drop the pan to pull the pump. Must be something wrong with it. I've heard a lot over the years about defective aftermarket pumps where the rotor slips on the shaft, although they usually take a while to fail.

On the TR3 there is no need to pack the pump with Vaseline. The pump extends down into the oil, so it will fill with oil anyway.

 

[twigworker]

Please correct me if I am wrong here.

The shaft is removable for the top after pulling the distributor and adapter?

The shaft can then be lifted out?

Will the bushing (#35 here https://www.mossmotors.com/Shop/ViewProducts.aspx?PlateIndexID=36459) come out with the shaft?

Does the shaft extend through the bushing and itself engage in the pump shaft?

What is the danger of the key ( #34 ) coming adrift and falling down into oblivion?

When removing the shaft from above the bushing ( #34 ) will come out along with the shaft?

Not trying to shirk my responsibilities for taking the pan down, but it would be foolish to not explore these other possibilities first.

Thanks for the comments Randall.

Jack

 

[sp53]

Just a thought and perhaps will sound foolish to an expert, but it seems to me if the oil pump was packed with vasoline and only could spin so fast without actually starting could that not stop any oil from entering thepump.

 

[martx-5]

The idea of packing Vaseline in the pump is that since it won't run out of the pump like oil will, it creates a vacuum (suction) that makes it easier to suck the oil up from the sump. As far as stopping the oil from entering the pump, that's why it's used...to help suck it up. As Randall has noted, the TR3 oil pump is already in the oil, so it's pretty much pointless to pack with Vaseline.

Also, on recently rebuilt TRactor engines, I've seen 20-30 psi of oil pressure while cranking. Mine's actually a little higher with the gear reduction starter in there.

 

[TR3driver]

Please correct me if I am wrong here.

The shaft is removable for the top after pulling the distributor and adapter?

The shaft can then be lifted out?

You also have to lift the gears out. Usually, though certainly not always, the shaft will stick inside the gears and come out with them.

Will the bushing (#35 here https://www.mossmotors.com/Shop/ViewProducts.aspx?PlateIndexID=36459) come out with the shaft?

I've never had it want to come out. It's supposed to be a light press fit into the block, but have running clearance to the shaft.

Does the shaft extend through the bushing and itself engage in the pump shaft?

Yes, exactly.

What is the danger of the key ( #34 ) coming adrift and falling down into oblivion?

It could happen; but it's never happened to me. In this case "oblivion" is just the oil pan, so no big deal if it does get away from you. But it should be a fairly snug fit in the shaft, so generally it won't fall out of its own weight even if the shaft doesn't come out still inside the gear.

Not trying to shirk my responsibilities for taking the pan down, but it would be foolish to not explore these other possibilities first.

No problem, I like quick fixes myself.

 

[TR3driver]

Just a thought and perhaps will sound foolish to an expert, but it seems to me if the oil pump was packed with vasoline and only could spin so fast without actually starting could that not stop any oil from entering thepump.

No, doesn't work that way. As soon as the pump starts to turn at all, it will force the vaseline out into the oil passage to the oil filter, and suck in fresh oil. The pump is a positive displacement design. At least in theory, the vaseline then harmlessly dissolves into the oil.

 

[twigworker]

Found it !

The person who assembled the engine neglected to fit the Woodruff key that secures the shaft to the gear!!!

#34 here https://www.mossmotors.com/Shop/ViewProducts.aspx?PlateIndexID=36459

Found a key over at NAPA in the correct size and presto! Oil flow.

Too late and too cold to do the rest of the pre-flight so I will do that in the AM.

BTW: Thanks for all of the suggestions! I was not looking forward to taking the pan off.

Jack

 

[TR3driver]

Cool. I love it when a plan comes together

 

[TR4nut]

If you don't have one consider putting in a magnetic plug for the pan - that little woodruff key just might be down somewhere in the pan right now.

 

[TR3driver]

If you don't have one consider putting in a magnetic plug for the pan - that little woodruff key just might be down somewhere in the pan right now.

Excellent point!
Check the plug style first, though. Early TR3s (and TR2) used a straight-threaded oil drain plug; while later cars use a pipe plug (tapered threads). Change point is given as engine TS18902E, but the factory workers didn't always get the memos or someone may have swapped the pan later. The magnetic pipe plugs are readily available (and lots cheaper through non-LBC suppliers like https://www.mcmaster.com/#magnetic-plugs/=m2ouie ) while I don't know of a source offhand for the magnetic plugs in the early style.