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Hardi Fuel Pump

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I'm at wits' end--and down to my last pump--with failed solid-state conversion SU fuel pumps. The German-made Hardi pump has been recommended, but it appears it might be difficult to fit to the existing copper plumbing, which expects parallel input/output ports:

https://www.bpnorthwest.com/austin-healey/bn4-bj8/fuel-pump-electronic-dual-polarity-banjo-bj8.html

Looks like the X-shaped piece is an adapter to the vertical bracket present in BJ8s? Anybody fitted one of these to an un-butchered BJ8 fuel system? Photos?
 

RAC68

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Hi Bob,

It looks like a nice unit but I am a little surprised you have had so many failed SU pumps. Although I haven't put on nearly as many miles as you have, I am still using my points SU pump but have installed a TSV to extend the life of the points indefinitely. The interesting thing I learned when researching the TSV was that the pump coil actually increased power to as much as 200 volts as a result of its coil. By using a TSV, voltage increase is limited to 20 volts with excess gated to ground. As a result, my points remains show no oxidation coating and should last indefinitely. I've mentioned this because your pump failures may be as a result of the high voltage and maybe a TSV would help the new unit to last longer.

Just a thought,
Ray(64BJ8P1)
 
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Bob_Spidell
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Thanks for the reply, Ray. I used points-based pumps for years with nothing, capacitors, diodes, transistors and TSVs for arc suppression. For the last few years I've been using pumps converted to opto-electrical switching built by Dave DuBois. I've had mixed results; I think the longest one lasted was 15K miles, which is surprising because the design and Dave's work is impeccable. One ingested water, somehow, probably through the vent on the plastic cap:

Pump2.jpg

One failed on the road this summer after only a few hundred miles, and no water that I recall, which confounds me, but I swapped another in on the side of the road which gave me over 5K miles but was dead after sitting for about 5 months. I'm down to the last functioning pump which, of course makes me nervous since I usually carry 2 spares (we often drive in the middle of nowhere, and out of cell range; the rest of my drive train is pretty much bulletproof at this point).

I'm just cursed, I guess, since some report many thousands of miles on points-based pumps. I ran those for years and did a couple emergency resuscitations in hotel rooms. My BJ8 has the original plumbing, and the tank is coated and, last I checked, free of contaminants. Maybe I'll know more when I perform postmortems on the two failed pumps. Ordinarily, I'd send the pumps back to Dave but I hear he has health issues and is not doing pump work for the time being, at least.
 

Michael Oritt

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Bob--

Since non-originality is apparently not a conversation-stopper for you I would suggest you check out a Carter P4070 pump. They are highly recommended for Webers which like SU's, need low fuel pressure. I have them on both my Elva SR and Ginetta with a fuel regulator/pressure gauge mounted near the carbs. They have been faultless in several years' worth of racing.
 
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Bob_Spidell
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Hi Michael, It looks like the Carter would do the job--is it polarity-sensitive?--but I am trying to retain at least the original plumbing and sound, and this would require cutting up the copper tubing. Even the Hardi would be a stretch for me, but it looks like it retains the 'spirit' of the SUs, but I don't think I could get the copper tubing and existing banjos to fit without cutting something (why on earth didn't they make the ports parallel, like SU pumps?). However, I will keep all options open until I have resolution.
 

Michael Oritt

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Bob--

I do not think the Carters are polarity-sensitive but do not know for sure. Both the MK IV and G4 are negative ground.
 

vette

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Bob, I'm sorry to hear that you have been having the trouble with your pumps. I know it can be frustrating when such simple things can defy a resolution for a time. Sometimes I think it is just our turn when it happens nothing else can explain it. Having said all of that I have to say that I have had good, consistent service from the electronic, dual polarity SU pumps supplied by the usual suspects. ( knock on wood please) I have installed two in my BJ7. Meaning I have two on board and plumbed into the system. They have been on the car since i restored it about 5 years ago. I put about 2500 miles a year on the car. I bought one from Moss and at the time installed it in series with the original SU pump that had been on the car for over 20 years but not alot of miles. Then a year later the original pump gave out and I happened to pick up one from a rebuilder fellow at Watkins Glen. So that one has been on for just 4 years. But both have been reliable since installation. I have each pump on a separate switch and each switch is electrically interlocked so that the pumps can not come on at the same time. The most downstream pump successfully sucks thru the pump before it and the up stream pump successfully pushes thru the one after it. I kept the right side pump at it original location on the bulkhead behind the right side seat and the other pump it mounted opposite it on the left side seat rear axle housing bulkhead. I created a bracket matching the one for the original pump. System works well and the pumps have been reliable. The nice part is that I did have a failure of fuel one time and I just switched over to the other pump. The failure was not a pumps fault but that a metal band that was around the pump became loose and slide down on the hot terminal of the pump and blew the fuse. I did not investigate it at the time out on the road, I just switched to the other pump.
 

Editor_Reid

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I think the Facet pumps make trouble a non-issue. They do not, however, provide the proper sound component of our cars' performance art.

I'm glad to hear Facet mentioned. That's what I carry as a spare in my Elan.

My BN2 has a dual-element SU pump, and I've never needed to use the "other side" in its many years of service.
 
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Bob_Spidell
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...
My BN2 has a dual-element SU pump, and I've never needed to use the "other side" in its many years of service.

If it's the points-type, you might want to fire it off occasionally to clean the oxidation off the points (and to make sure it'll work if you do need it :playful:smile:.
 

Editor_Reid

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If it's the points-type, you might want to fire it off occasionally to clean the oxidation off the points (and to make sure it'll work if you do need it :playful:smile:.

That's not a bad idea. There's a toggle switch under the battery cover, so it's easy to change the side that's working. The last time I switched it over was probably 10+ years ago. Fortunately that occasion was not because I "needed" it, but just to exercise it a bit. I guess it's overdue for some more exercise ... like its owner.
 

DerekJ

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If you are going non original then it’s time to move the pump from it’s impractical and exposed location. Install a Facet in the left side boot well and carry a spare just in case. Much cleaner and simpler than the original set up.
 

RAC68

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Hi All,

Having driven my car since new and having required its operation as fun and family car, dependability was a critical factor and maintenance a key activity. Back in the late 1980, I preemptively replaced my square SU pump with the unit used on the Phase 2 model of the BJ8 and it has been installed and running well with the inclusion of many of the prevailing additional components Bob mentioned for extending point life. I can't say they all worked as expected but I can say that over the years I have only installed 2 sets of points and found the best point stability with the TSV which maintained a high volt of 20v (sufficient for oxidation removal) and sending to ground all voltage above (coil generated as much as 200v).

However, I do carry a backup but not a full pump as the weak link in the SU pump seems to be the triggering mechanism. A while back, when the transistorized/solid state SU pumps were exhibiting sudden failures, 2 west cost friends and I worked on designing an optical trigger that could fit under the cap of an SU pump and started practical testing of a preliminary prototype (Rev. -1). Shortly after testing began, SU's solid state issues seemed to be resolved and work stopped on our optical trigger.

However, to this day, my on-board SU backup remains that optically triggered head for the installed SU (points) pump. In actual tests, I found I could more easily remove the wheel and change the head of the SU pump then replace the whole pump and, in my younger days it would take about 10 minutes (if I remember correctly). By changing only the trigger head, you eliminate the possibility of cross threading the fuel lines and as well as having gas leaking from the lines and pump when removing the pump. Since you maintain the body and coil in tack, no pump removal or disruption of the fuel path is created and pre-start setup is almost automatic. Yes, there a risk that the body could have problems but the coil and body of the SU pump is the most reliable portion with triggering posing a multi-times high probability of failure.

100_1329.jpg100_1331.jpg100_1332.jpg

Just my approach to SU backup and I would take it using a spare points or solid state head as well,
Ray(64BJ8P1)
 
Last edited:

Michael Oritt

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I have had bad experiences with FACET cubes as primary pumps in my race cars and, as stated above, use Carters on two of them. If and when the Holly blue I have on the Courier ever craps out I will install a Carter there as well.

On my 100 I used to have an SU with a Facet cube backup installed at the top of the left wheel arch but about two years back I installed an SU double-headed pump that DD rebuilt for me, fastening it to the rear of the bulkhead in the approximate spot where the original SU was mounted, with an On-Off-On switch behind the driver's seat.
 

vette

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Ray, you did a very significant construction on that fuel pump. Nice job.
General question to All: do the facet pumps all run continuously? i have been taking care of a BugEye Sprite for many years now which has had a Facet pump since I started serviceing it. It runs continuously as soon as energized. Weird sounding for me. You don't hear it when the car is running. This past summer the pump quit. I happened to have a similar facet on the shelf that I intended to carry in my Healey until I installed two pumps so I installed it on the Bugeye. It was a little different looking than the one I took off but it made the same sound.
 

RAC68

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Hi Vette,

I believe the Facet pump does run continuously. When I installed a new pump in my Triumph TR7, I also chose a non-SU electric pump to replace its original mechanical pump. The electric pump goes on when the ignition key is turned and off when the ignition is turned off. I can hear the pump running when initially starting the car and the sound is drowned out by the sound of the exhaust. One issue with the optical trigger is that it made no sound … no ticking as with the original points or solid state SU triggers. This concerned me and we discussed installing a sound circuit that would supply the tick.

Many people may not like the ticking of the SU pump but, after so many years of listening, I find it comforting to hear.

Ray(64BJ8P1)
 
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Bob_Spidell
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I just had a conversation with Mark at sufuelpump.com (apparently, he's bought that and other related businesses). According to him, the SS conversions can be hit-or-miss, and I'm not the only one with 'bad luck' with the pumps. I will likely send my dead units to him to see what he can do with them.

re: "Many people may not like the ticking of the SU pump but, after so many years of listening, I find it comforting to hear. "

Conversely, it's very uncomfortable to NOT hear it when you should.
 

Michael Oritt

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Steve--

On two or three occasions they simply stopped working entirely--no noise, no fuel, no nothing. Each time it happened it cost me a run session so I simply opted for something else and the 'carter pumps have proven to be 100% reliable, at least so far. I do carry a spare.
 

steveg

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Steve--

On two or three occasions they simply stopped working entirely--no noise, no fuel, no nothing. Each time it happened it cost me a run session so I simply opted for something else and the 'carter pumps have proven to be 100% reliable, at least so far. I do carry a spare.

Would like to understand that better. I've been running them since the mid-70s on various cars and until now had never heard of a failure. Wonder if you had a non-standard placement.
 
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