Hard Steering?

[Tinkerman]

Morning All:

I know hard steering has been discussed recently on the forum. I put most of the info into my BCF Tips file. However that thread did not answer the question I have. Let me explain where my project is in the whole scheme of things.

The front suspension has been completely rebuilt including new trunnions properly reamed. It is all assembled as you can see from the picture.

My question for you is this. Should I be able to turn the steering by turning the shaft at the half way joint. That is to say grabbing the joint and turning one way or the other? I can tell you that I can't. A godzilla i'm not but a 91 pound weakling I'm not either. The only way I can get any movement out of the front end is by using the hub and brakes and pulling and pushing and that isn't easy. I would tell you that I have installed a new rocker shaft, peg and worm gear also a spring loaded top cover.

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated, Thanks, Tinkerman

 

[Mickey Richaud]

Did you try backing off the adjustment bolt in the steering box to see if that would loosen it up a bit? Getting the proper tension is key, if I remember from redoing mine.

Mickey

 

[TR3driver]

Definitely should turn easily at that point, with the wheels off the ground.

So, start undoing things until you find where it binds. My first step would probably be to loosen the upper pinch bolt in the center clamp and pop out the upper steering shaft. If that frees it up noticeably, likely the two shafts are not aligned properly, or possibly there is a problem in the upper shaft.

Next step would be to undo the joint between the Pitman arm and the center link; to isolate the steering box. My feeling is that you cannot properly adjust the box with it connected to anything else anyway; so might as well undo the joint to start with. Fortunately, being freshly assembled, it should come apart fairly easily; but IMO you will still need the tool I linked to before to get it out without damaging the new Silentbloc.

 

[tosoutherncars]

I would wait until it's got wheels on, and some weight on the suspension before you start adjusting.

Someone on here had a similar problem that disappeared once the suspension was loaded (but with a later TR, I think...) Those little changes in geometry can make a difference.

 

[sp53]

First off there is something wrong. It sounds like you have rebuilt the steering box, and sometimes the upper bearing roll cage can slip down over and bind if the race was not bottomed out at the top. It is going to fall down because of gravity over time. How much play is there in the worm gear? And if it has slipped over you will perhaps not be able to tell other than the steering is stiff because the worm gear now is slanted and caught in a bind. Anyways I hope that is not it. I just saw your picture and everything looks nice. You could pop the top off the box and look inside to see if the gear is in line with everything, but be very careful moving the worm shaft with the top off because the peg shaft will want to pop out as it raises up against the adjuster, so if you move stuff with the top off keep some pressure on the peg. My experience has been that stiff steering is often the idler arm.

 

[Tinkerman]

I just installed a new steering box cover that is spring loaded, bought from British Frame and engine. Everything in the steering box is new. The original steering box had a loose peg (factory defect I figure) and it ate up the worm gear and other parts. The upper shaft of the two part steering is not on at this point.

I figure I'm going to have to start loosening things up to determine where its binding. Sheehhhh I hate redoos!

Thanks, Tinkerman

 

[sp53]

I was rethinking things and Perhaps the problem is in the springed adjuster like has been said. I have never worked with one of those and they might hold everything very tight.

 

[Don Elliott]

Dick - Give a call to Ken Gillanders at BFE. You'll find him very co-operative and he'll do what he can with suggestions to solve the stiffness.

 

[TR3driver]

I hate those spring-loaded things! My suggestion is to use it for a paperweight, put on a proper top cover and adjust it properly.

The spring-loaded cover can only make things worse ... if that spring supplies enough force to hold the peg down under maximum steering force, then it is going to be VERY tight ALL THE TIME. And if it doesn't supply that much force, then the steering is suddenly going to get very sloppy (ie turn the wheel and nothing happens) just when you need it most (ie emergency manuever).

One of my friends had found the happy medium between those two conditions : His TR steered like a truck AND had huge amounts of slop. Going back to the standard top cover solved the problem.

 

[Tinkerman]

Re: Hard Steering? More pictures

Evening all:

I bought the tool that Randall suggested and it works great. I popped the tie rod ends off. The wheels turn with moderate pushing and pulling, both about the same. The steering column turns the center link, with the dangling tie rod ends, with no problem at all. Now I'm wondering if I assembled it all correctly, think I did, but with me ya never know. Any how I've taken some pictures of the left and right sections and invite your thoughts. You need to click the attachment to see the other picture.

To me the binding seems to be in the tie rods. Why would that be?

 

[TR3driver]

Re: Hard Steering? More pictures

My feeling is that the wheels should not require "moderate pushing and pulling" to turn them. Mine would literally flop around under their own weight with no pressure on the trunnion.
Also at this point, IMO the steering wheel should feel like it's completely disconnected, not just "no problem".

I guess the tie rod ends could be binding, but I've never seen it happen. Obviously the inner end turned under it's own weight, can you also move the tie rod to change the angle? And can you move the outer end (the tapered shank) from side to side with heavy finger pressure?

Little hard to tell from the photo, but it does look like the outer end is turned at a funny angle relative to the inner end. If you locked the ends to the tie rod before installing them on the car, that might cause them to bind when installed.

 

[Tinkerman]

Re: Hard Steering? More pictures

Yep might have done that Randall, guess i'll loosen them up, reinstall and see if that makes a difference. Easy to pop them off again, if I have to, with that nifty tool!

 

[Don Elliott]

Re: Hard Steering? More pictures

I had tight steering after I replaced the upper ball joints. It's Herman who told me about his experience and I had the same set-up and the same problem. There are splines on the shaft of the new ball joint where the tapered bit goes down into the upper hole in the link above the trunnion. The splines on the new part guided themselves into the old ones in the vertical link and this put a twist on the upper ball joint assembly so the link was tight to turn, I had to re-align the vertical bit where the splines mate and then tighten the large nut at a point where it was no longer tight. It's been fine since then - about 50,000 miles. With the front end lifted and supported on jack stands, I can sit on the floor of my garage beside the front wheel on either side of the car and I turn the wheel in a steering motion without too much force. When I move the wheel this way, I can see the steering wheel turning.

 

[TR3driver]

Re: Hard Steering? More pictures

The splines on the new part guided themselves into the old ones in the vertical link and this put a twist on the upper ball joint assembly so the link was tight to turn, I had to re-align the vertical bit where the splines mate and then tighten the large nut at a point where it was no longer tight.

I've never heard of that before, Don. Are you saying that you had to make it cut new grooves in the A-arm? Or just twist it to use the next groove over?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]With the front end lifted and supported on jack stands, I can sit on the floor of my garage beside the front wheel on either side of the car and I turn the wheel in a steering motion without too much force.[/QUOTE]Yup. I had the 3A in the air the other day, robbing parts, and I can still move the steering easily, pushing on a tire with one hand.

At least for the moment, I've decided to assemble TS13571L with the wide-mouth apron it had when I got it, so I can mount the sway bar easily. Eventually, when I've acquired a welder and the skills to use it, I hope to fabricate a mount that will work with the early apron and put that on.

 

[Don Elliott]

Re: Hard Steering? More pictures

Randall - I tried the next spline over but it was still tight because now it was too far the other way. So I tried to center it as best I could and pull it all together with the nut to "jack" it into a new half-way position. I suppose I "broached" new splines into the upper wishbone assembly. I had to do this on both sides of the TR3A.

Herman could tell you about his experience but he had this trouble on Heidi's TR3A and warned me that I might run into the same problem. And he was right. I did.

I suspect that this problem would not arise if you were to re-use ball joints you took out.

 

[Roverbudgie]

Hi, I just finished rebuilding the steering box on the 59 TR3a. New worm gear, rocker shaft, bushing (reamed to fit) all parts from TRF. Without the steering wheel I can't begin to turn the shaft either. You need the leverage of the steering wheel if all else is correct: shaft bush not too tight, top cover nut adjusted correctly (not too tight). I can turn the hub without wheel by firmly pushing but turns best with wheel mounted. This while on jack stands. My stator tube was broken at the top where the slot ends. I have on order from online metals in Seattle a new 6 foot SS tube the exact dimensions to make a new one. Kudos on your project, look great! Robert in WA.

 

[Tinkerman]

Thanks Robert, I really suspect that since everything is new that has a great deal to do with the stiff steering. I suspect that if I mounted the wheels, which I can't do now since they are undergoing re-truing and then off to the painter for the finish, it would turn much easier. Sometimes, as my wife says, I tend to over engineer and worry about stuff needlessly. Oh well, thats why its a hobby, right?

Welcome to the forum. It is a great place to talk with folks about our hobby!

Regards, Tinkerman

 

[martx-5]

My stator tube was broken at the top where the slot ends. I have on order from online metals in Seattle a new 6 foot SS tube the exact dimensions to make a new one.

I don't know how much the one from Seattle is costing, but Macy's Garage has new stator tube with the anti rattle bushings...which are actually bearings that bear against the steering shaft and allow the tube to remain stationary while the shaft rotates. There are machined sections in the stator tube to accomodate these bearings. Just something to consider.

 

[sp53]

Re: Hard Steering? More pictures

I cannot remember for sure, and I am at work working, but is it possible to turn the vertical link to far into the trunnion and have that cause resistance? In addition to that and again if memory severs is it not possible to install the silent pins in such a way that the center connecting rod rubs on the front pulley assembly as it travels left and right. Just throwing things out there.

 

[TR3driver]

Re: Hard Steering? More pictures

is it possible to turn the vertical link to far into the trunnion and have that cause resistance?

Certainly can be done, but would cause a LOT of resistance once the VL hit the bottom of the trunnion. I guess until it knocked the bottom out, anyway.<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:] In addition to that and again if memory severs is it not possible to install the silent pins in such a way that the center connecting rod rubs on the front pulley assembly as it travels left and right. [/QUOTE]I don't see how that's possible, but it's certainly a good thing to check. If for example someone has installed a 4-synchro gearbox without drilling the rear crossmember, it might force the engine far enough forward to cause a problem there. But seems to me you'd notice the racket of the pulley rubbing against the center link, with the engine running.