TR6 Going to see a TR6 this week...

[Alan_Myers]

Re: Now I really need your help!

Excellent! Glad to hear you found a good one at a good price!

Regarding the stuck brakes, it's not uncommon for them to stick when the car sits for a long time, if the parking brake is left on. The shoes rust to the inside of the drums. Just release the parking brake and rock the car. It may take a few tries but eventually the shoes should release. If that fails, get to the adjuster from behind and turn it counterclockwise, back off the shoes as much as possible and try rocking the car front to rear again. Eventually the shoe lining will break free from the drum.

I'd trailer the car, or hire a car hauler that can load it on a flat bed. Don't trust any of the wheels to roll 150 miles, until you've had a chance to go over the car and check fluids, brakes, nuts & bolts, etc. I.e., don't use one of those 2 wheel dolly contraptions, or, god forbid, a tow rope!

As to lifting the body off the frame, it's not nearly so big a deal as you might think, especially if the interior is alread removed from the car. Get hold of a manual and it will likely give you a step-by-step of what to remove (the TR4 & 4A manual does, I haven't looked in the TR6 manual). Most of it is obvious, though.

Next is something to lift with. I bought two 1000 lb chain hoists from Harbor Freight or Norhern Tool. Cheap ($40 apiece) and nothing fancy, but one will also work to pull and install a TR engine/gearbox, instead of renting or buying an engine hoist.

Securely fasten the chain hoists to the ceiling, roll the car under and lift away. The best/factory recommended lifting points are the hood hinge mounting points (I made a pair of heavy brackets to bolt up there and connect an "engine leveler" between them, to which the chain hoist attached... this allowed me to adjust the car's level, side to side) and the seatbelt mounts inside the cockpit (I just used a heavy tow strap wrapped numerous times around the roll bar that's in my car, instead).

This was the first time for me and I definitely will do a TR "body off" again. I did all the work by myself, with no assistance. The chassis and running gear is *all so much easier to work on*!

An alternative is to completely strip the body to the bare center section and feed a bunch of friends pizza and beer after they help lift it off. The stripped body doesn't weigh alot... maybe 400-500 lbs. 4 to 6 people can lift it.

But, you are then faced with what to do with the body, the car suddenly takes up double the space. (I left my TR4's body hanging from the ceiling for several days... Oh, and I did put some extra vertical support posts from the garage floor to the ceiling, supporting the 6 joists to which the chain hoists were attached.)

It's really easy to work on the chassis once the body is out of the way. This is especially true when replacing fuel lines, brake line and front and rear suspension components.

I lifted the body with many parts still in place. Just the hood, front and rear bumper were removed. And, the windshield, to avoid any cracking. (The frame was still on my car, but the glass was removed.

The door openings should be cross-braced to keep the body from "folding" in the middle. Many weld in a brace, in such a way that the doors can still be installed and test fitted. I think it would also be possible to brace from the hoodstick mounting bolts to the windshield bracket mounting bolts (if the dash is removed), rather than welding. I *did not* brace the doors on my car at this time, since this was just a "lift, out with the old, in with the new, and lower" job. The doors were left in place, not opened during the entire time, and served to brace the door frames. I will tell you the gap at the top of the doors securely closed up while the body was lifted, so I really don't think there would have been a way to open and close them.

I *really* lucked out when lifting the body, didn't even think about it until the last minute. I failed to consider how much space would be necessary to roll the rebuilt chassis under the car. Turns out that the new chassis was 34" tall, at its highest point. The lifting rig I set up with the chain hoists etc. reached its limit with the car body 35" off the ground! One inch to spare! Too close for comfort! (Pulling the old, stripped chassis out was no big deal, just a matter of removing the jackstands, letting it drop to the floor and sliding it out from under the car.)

I *highly* recommend you get Roger William's "Improving Triumph..." and "Restoring Triumph..." books and read them thoroughly first. They provide a number of important frame reinforcement ideas that alone are worth the cost of the books. For example, the differential mounting bolts on all the IRS cars should *always* be reinforced, while you have easy access.

Attached is a photo of the TR4 hoisted partways to the ceiling.

Glad to hear you got the car and I hope it continues to delight.

Cheers!

Alan Myers
San Jose, Calif.
'62 TR4 CT17602L

 

[Guest]

Re: Now I really need your help!

Bash,
Congrats on finding a good TR6. If, indeed, the body is as solid as you say, I would suggest that you not try and take the body off the frame, seeing as how you say that you have a limited work space. If you are heck bent on doing some dismantling, then I would suggest that you limit yourself to taking off the wings (fenders) and leaving the body on the frame. Of course you can remove the trunk, hood and doors without too much hastle. Taking the body off requires bracing the unit and then having some place to put it to work on. You have now doubled your need for work space. You can get to everything on the body for rustproofing from this point. With the interior out, I would go ahead and pull the dash to consider rewiring, changing windshield rubber, new pads, etc. A good paint man can take a rust-free car and spray it, inside and out, for the long haul. Of course you will be pulling the engine/tranny and might even drop the whole suspension with good jack stands. I rolled my chassis to the paint shop for a two-stage paint job - interior, trunk and engine bay, outside last. Rolling it back to your garage will allow you to hand-paint the frame with chassis black, replumb, etc. I don't know if you want to go this far, but get it home and up on jack stands and mull it all over. If you are married, your wife will never understand.

Bill

 

[kindofblue]

Re: Now I really need your help!

I am realy surprised. A rust free frame in the NJ area. Congrats......

I have no comment on lifting the body off to do the work. I strongly recommend a tow service to transport your vehicle. A guy I worked with bough a classic 20s Chevy coupe and was towing it home 50 miles with his pickup and a flatbed. He ran in a surprise stoppage of cars on the highway. His rear brakes locked up and he nearly lost his prize on the flatbed. Dont let it happen to you....Hire a professional.

Also, have them look at you driveway before they take the car. My driveway has a small but steep incline at the very bottom. The 250 was easy to extract from its barn, but the flatbed got stuck on my driveway. The Triumph was wedged between the driveway and the car, and the truck was stuck with its rear wheels off the ground, blocking off the street in front of my house.....Not an easy morning...

 

[Adrio]

Re: Now I really need your help!

Good find. I am sure you are happy. As to removing the body from the frame, I recoment it. I have done it with both my TR3 and TR4 and would (will) do it again. With the TR4 I was able to lift and flip the body over with about 5 people doing the lifing (check my website for pictures of this). One time I even got out the scales and weighed the thing. It turns out the body with no doors or fenders (but with the braces and external frame I had to keep it from flexing) came it at only 410 pounds.

BTW I used an engine hoist to remount the body. It was great because you need to get the correct spacers for the body to fram joints. This took a few on and off interations. The engine hoist let me do that without having five guys look over my shoulder. Besides you will want the engine hoist some day for the engine rebuilt (since the body is off!).

 

[bash]

Re: Now I really need your help!

I must admit that I expected it to be harder to find a solid car in this area, but fortunately the car isn't originally from the north - it lived in Texas until about 5 years ago, and it hasn't been driven in the winter.

If I decide to lift the body to allow me to properly treat the frame, is it possible to do this without dismantling the body at all? I know that removing doors, bonnet fenders etc. would make it lighter, but wouldn't leaving the doors on act as a brace instead of welding one in? Maybe I am being naive - it just seems like this would allow me to retain the reasonably good panel gaps?

I had a look for transport companies and there seem to be a lot of them. Any recommendations?

 

[kindofblue]

Re: Now I really need your help!

[ QUOTE ]


I had a look for transport companies and there seem to be a lot of them. Any recommendations?

[/ QUOTE ]

My 250 was a Texas car as well. Only lived in PA for 5 years before its layup.

I would call local garages that specialize in foreign cars and see who they use. I called a guy Ragtops & Roadsters from Perkasie recommended. The morning of the move, his truck broke down. He gave me a number for a more generic place. I had no choice, the car had to move that morning, no other window existed. I think that caused some problems.

 

[Alan_Myers]

Re: Now I really need your help!

[ QUOTE ]
If I decide to lift the body to allow me to properly treat the frame, is it possible to do this without dismantling the body at all? I know that removing doors, bonnet fenders etc. would make it lighter, but wouldn't leaving the doors on act as a brace instead of welding one in? Maybe I am being naive - it just seems like this would allow me to retain the reasonably good panel gaps?


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, you can.

Please reread my response from yesterday and view the attached photo. That's a substantailly complete TR4 body being lifted off its original frame (which is on the floor in the photo) in preparation to roll a refurbished frame/drivetrain underneath (photo of the frame/drivetrain attached here).

There are some detail differences between TR6 and TR4, but the basics are the same.

Lifting like this makes working on the frame/suspension/drivetrain very easy.

This procedure is *not* recommended for body work/paint.

In my case, the original frame had some accident damage that I intended to repair. However, I had the opportunity to buy a very solid, straight, almost stripped frame. Using that, I built up the car from the ground up, alongside the old frame. This made the process so easy I'd seriously consider buying a second frame before starting any future restoration project!

Think about it. This is essentially what the factory did originally. They married a largely assembled body to a mostly completed frame/drivetrain.

Biggest concern is that you'll be lifting approx. 1000 lbs and some safety measures should be taken. It's not recommended to get under the hanging body and work on it in any way. The doors don't absolutely need to be braced, but won't be possible to open, either. I'd not leave them "jammed" like this for too long, either. It is possible to brace the doors with a bolted up brace, rather than welding, too.

Be very sure to unbolt and remove the windshield/frame, or any flex might crack the glass. This also gives you more clearance for lifting. The hood (bonnet) will have to come off. The carpet will need to come out to get access to many bolts, so the seats will need to come out temporarily, too. Fuel lines, wiring, brake lines will need to be disconnected, some removed. The radiator shroud and carburetors/manifold will need to be removed. Heater hoses need to be disconnected/removed. Bumpers and their brackets will have to come off. There's more, hopefully you can find a book. The removal and lifting process could probably be done in one day. It took me a full day to install the body onto the different frame and bolt it up... mostly time spent fooling with all the mounting shims to get a good fit. (Re-fitting a body to it's original frame would take less time, so long as careful notes are kept regarding how many shims were originally used at each mounting point.)

I am doing this work in a two car garage, wish I had a three car garage or larger! But, I know someone doing similar work in a one car garage.

I do plan to take the body back off the frame. This is just a trial fit, to make sure all the new and refurbished bits and pieces are playing well together. Next time it's lifted, the body will be stripped for final body work and painting. But, the frame/suspension/drivetrain is now pretty much done. The "new" frame needed to be under the car before certain body replacement panels could be properly fitted, anyway.

The TR4/4A factory manual shows procedure for lifting the body as a unit and gives a list of minimum items needing to be removed or disconnected. I just looked in my Bentley manual for TR260-TR6 and don't see a similar guideline. Perhaps one of the other manuals or restoration books give those details.

Hope this helps!

Alan Myers
San Jose, Calif.
'62 TR4 CT17602L

 

[kindofblue]

Re: Now I really need your help!

I believe Roger Williams guide to Restoring TR250/6 Has a chapter on removing the body from the frame.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/19012959...j=0#reader-page

 

[bash]

Re: Now I really need your help!

I have the Bentley Manual and that Roger Williams restoring TR250/TR6 book ordered - I am eagerly awaiting their emergence from the magical postal system as I write this!

I am having a terrible time finding people to trailer the car back - I only have a small amount of time when the car can be picked up, and at short notice nobody seems able to help. At the moment I am planning to get a tow hitch installed on my wife's SUV and hire a trailer from UHaul. Other than engine to the front, any tips? Also, does anyone know if the UHaul trailers have a winch? If I can't free the back brakes fairly easily I might have to drag it up (I doubt the tires can be used for long anyway!)

I still have over a week until I pick the car up, but I have to go to Houston on business next week, so not much time to sort things out!

So far I have resisted the temptation to buy a load of parts - my plan is to get the car home and have a really good poke around to decide what needs to be done first. Any suggestions? Should I sort out the surface rust issues first, or get the mechanicals sorted?

 

[ObiRichKanobi]

Re: Now I really need your help!

[ QUOTE ]
At the moment I am planning to get a tow hitch installed on my wife's SUV and hire a trailer from UHaul. Other than engine to the front, any tips? Also, does anyone know if the UHaul trailers have a winch?

[/ QUOTE ]

No winches on Uhaul trailers.

As far as rust vs. mechanicals...hmmmm for the most part, rust doesn't prevent the car from being driven; mechanicals will. I'd vote for getting the mechanicals sorted and fixed, and then work on the rust.

 

[Tullamore]

Re: Now I really need your help!

UHaul also won't let you rent a trailer if you will be pulling it with a small SUV. It must be a full size SUV like a Tahoe or Suburban. If your wife drives an Explorer or smaller they will not give you the trailer.

 

[Alan_Myers]

Re: Now I really need your help!

Hi Bash,

Glad to hear you have the books on order. They will help with much more detail than we ever could ever provide here.

I would strongly suggest tracking down the correct factory parts (spares) catalog, too.

Vicky Brit and Moss catalogs are fine, as far as they go. But both of these use their own parts numbering systems (Moss numbers *are* used by some other vendors). But, you will need to know the correct original Triumph part number to most accurately order replacement parts from many sources (The Roadster Factory, Rimmers).

If you haven't done so already, get as many vendors as possible to send you their current, free catalogs. They are good resources with lots of illustrations, but question their accuracy. These vendors often supercede a part without telling you, or might send "something close/something that will work", and sometimes are just plain wrong. I've found numerous errors in every single vendor's catalog. Heck, the factory catalog probably isn't perfect, either, but makes a good effort.

You might also add "Restoring British Sports Cars" to the reading list... it's a good overview and has a lot of general pointers (Roger's book is much more specific to the car, of course).

If you ever get an urge to do some performance tuning on your car, Roger has a companion book "Improving TR..." that has a lot of suggestions.

I also would vote to sort out the mechanicals first, with an initial focus on safety. Don't rely on the car's brakes to work properly, or the tires, until you've looked everything over and are sure they are safe. Check the steering carefully too.

Maybe just stop any active rust you find with a quick shot of a good quality primer such as Rustoleum red, but don't worry too much about it until you get the car running right. Some rust repairs are best done with the body on the frame (floors, see Roger's book) and others need the body off.

I have promised myself the next restoration project will get professionally steam cleaned before I touch it! At the very least, take it by a car wash on the way home, maybe while it's on the trailer. A half hour back on the highway afterward will pretty thoroughly dry everything, too.

Another thing I plan prior to any more restorations is to build lots and lots of nice, deep shelves for parts as the old ones are removed or the new ones are deliverd by UPS. An important rule is to keep everything until the project is done, don't throw away the old parts until replacements are installed, have been compared for accuracy and known to be working 100%. But, that takes up a lot of space. Lots of shelving would be great. I've resorted to cardboard boxes, but hhave spent way too much time digging through them for a specific item, no matter how carefully the boxes are labelled and organized.

If you don't already have one, a digital camera is a real help. Take pictures of things before disassembly, to help put them back together correctly. Heck, start taking pictures as soon as you pick up the car if you wish to document it. This also provides a good record of work, if you keep before and after photos, that can really be valuable if and when you ever decide to sell the car.

Loading the car on a trailer means getting it close to balanced, with a little more weight on the front than the back. Most trailer hitches accomodate 300 lb tongue weight. The U-Haul folks will help with suggestions, I'm sure.

Watch the undercarriage loading the car, too. My TR4 got some damage on the front and rear lower valances from careless loading/unloading, when it was shipped to me some years ago. TRs sit low!

Don't buy a ton of parts! See what's needed first.

Things you *might* buy in advance are those you know for certain you'll need. These might be tools and supplies such as jacks and jackstands, latex gloves... consumables such as brake fluid, engine and gear oils.... any parts that should be changed before running the car such as rubber hoses, fuel lines & belts... air, fuel & oil filters... gaskets, too, so the sump can be pulled to clean inside, valve cover, possibly the front engine cover. But, who knows, it's not uncommon for a seller to have some spares of these items and throw them in the trunk at the last minute.

Not to worry. There will be plenty of opportunity to spend your hard earned cash later!

Have fun!

Alan Myers
San Jose, Calif.
'62 TR4 CT17602L

 

[Guest]

Re: Now I really need your help!

Alan's suggestion for getting the car steam cleaned is an excellent one. Way back when, I purchased a rather sad looking TR3 and fortunately had access to a real steam cleaner (not to be mistaken for a good high pressure washer). I rolled the car to the cleaning area (was in the military back then and they had a great automotive shop) and got it up on a lift. Three hours of ultra-hot live steam cleaning got every speck of grease, dirt, undercoat, etc. from every nook and cranny in the car. Surprisingly did very little damage to the car and it's components. Made working on the car a pleasure. There is no substitute for live steam.

Bill

 

[Mark Jones]

Re: Now I really need your help!

Bash;

I'd use a come-a-long to winch the car onto the U-Haul trailer. By winching the car it may also free the frozen rear brakes.

Also, I've always had good luck with U-Haul equipment. I trailered my Spitfire from Halifax, NS, to Sarnia, ON, a distance of 1,300 miles without a problem.

Good luck!

 

[bash]

She's here!

I am not sure whether anyone is really interested, but I thought I would keep you all up to date! After two weeks of worrying about how I would get the frozen brakes free and how I would tow it home, I finally have a TR6 in my garage. I was very pleased to get the brakes freed in less than 20 minutes with a little "careful" hammering. I was less pleased with the UHaul truck which apparently had the front wheels connected to the steering wheel by a series of rubber bands, but after 4 hours of constant sawing at the wheel to stay in a straight line, we got the old girl to her new home.

I have spent much of the weekend being nice to my wife, who is still a bit unsure why I would bring home a car which I can't drive straight away, but I did manage to find time to get underneath and have another good look around, and I am still amazed at how solid things look. I am also pretty shocked at how filthy the suspension is. I like the idea of the steam cleaning, but can't find anything locally - am I looking in the wrong place? Also, has anyone tried the home steam cleaners? Brake cleaner seems to cut through the grime pretty well, but I don't really want to be spraying that stuff around all day!

I have decided to start out sorting out the suspension and brakes to make sure I can stop it when I get the engine running nicely, and so I have a list of parts building up already, but mainly things I was expecting, like bushes, brake hoses, ball joints. Any other parts of the suspension and brakes that I should be swapping now?

My car is a 75, which means it has pretty much any emissions equipment they could dream up - I noticed that I have a couple of the small hoses missing and some rust on the pipe out of the EGR valve. Is it possible to remove the emissions stuff relatively easily? We have no emissions test for collector cars here in NJ, though there may be some other law that tells me to keep it all in place, I suppose.

Sorry to go on like this - I am still very excited! Thanks again for all the help and advice.

 

[Mickey Richaud]

Re: She's here!

Let the games begin!

Congratulations - we look forward to hearing about your progress. If you can remove the emissions stuff legally, do so. But keep all the parts, both for originality's sake, and in the event the laws change.

Mickey

 

[Radford]

Re: She's here!

Congratulations, I know just how excited you must be. To the first of many with you new car. Cheers! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/thirsty.gif

 

[kindofblue]

Re: She's here!

[ QUOTE ]

I have spent much of the weekend being nice to my wife, who is still a bit unsure why I would bring home a car which I can't drive straight away, but I did manage to find time to get underneath and have another good look around, and I am still amazed at how solid things look. I am also pretty shocked at how filthy the suspension is. I like the idea of the steam cleaning, but can't find anything locally - am I looking in the wrong place? Also, has anyone tried the home steam cleaners? Brake cleaner seems to cut through the grime pretty well, but I don't really want to be spraying that stuff around all day!

I have decided to start out sorting out the suspension and brakes to make sure I can stop it when I get the engine running nicely, and so I have a list of parts building up already, but mainly things I was expecting, like bushes, brake hoses, ball joints. Any other parts of the suspension and brakes that I should be swapping now?



[/ QUOTE ]

Thanfully, my wife is very supportive. Especially when I tell her that working on the car is probably the most satisfying hobby I have ever done in my life. Nothing like gettting the Triumph grease under my nails.

As far as the crud on the suspension, leave it. My frame is rust free under the undercoating and caked on mud. Some members of my club said they cleaned all the crud off, and it began to rot. Until you restore the whole thing, leave it as a "dirt coat".

 

[Guest]

Re: She's here!

[ QUOTE ]
We have no emissions test for collector cars here in NJ, though there may be some other law that tells me to keep it all in place, I suppose.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Bash, great to see another New Jersian with a TR6, where are you from in Jersey?

If you register your car as a classic, with QQ plates, there is no inspection required. This is not to say that it isn't illegal to remove the smog gear, but if they never inspect it then who will know. The only time it might be an issue is if you got caught in one of those spot roadside inspection things, then they might nail you. However, I haven't seen cops do one of those in this state in many years. The registration fee is a one time only affair. You will get an application in the mail every year for a renewal of the registration, but there is no fee associated with it. You just fill out the form, sign it, and send it back. They then mail you a new card. I would say, as others suggested, get the smog gear off the car where ever possible but keep the parts in case you ever decide to do a full, correct restoration. Some of that stuff is very hard to find and expensive should you decide to just toss it out and then need it again for a restoration years later.

 

[bash]

Re: She's here!

Hi Bash, great to see another New Jersian with a TR6, where are you from in Jersey?

I am actually from England, but I moved to NJ about 18 months ago - I am located in Somerset, which I don't think is too far from Hillsborough (though I won't pretend to be an expert on the geography of NJ!!)

If I do take off the emissions stuff, what should I remove, and what should I leave on the car?

I should just clarify (in case she ever reads this...) that when I say that my wife doesn't understand, I mean that she isn't sure what the appeal of messing about with an old car is - she is very supportive. I think she is pleased to see me get a hobby as well, which gives her some time without me hanging around! Time she will no doubt spend watching reality TV... Which I don't understand!