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TR6 Going to see a TR6 this week...

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bash

bash

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Okay, some of you may remember that a while ago I was on this board asking whether you thought it was feasible for me to restore a TR6. I read it all withgreat care and somehow managed to ignore all of the parts that warned of huge expense and misery, and focused on the parts where people said it was going to be great! Anyway, as a result of much looking at ebay auctions and various club websites, I am going to look at a car this Friday. I am hoping that you experienced people will help out a newbie with some advice of what to look for. The car I am looking at has been sitting (indoors) for a few years, and so I would have thought that trying to start it right away would be a bad idea. The seller said that it was running "a bit rough" when he put it away and he hasn't started it since. What can I do to check it out without turning the engine? I know about checking the thrust washers, but what else can I look at?

From the pictures I have seen, the only worrying rust (I know, I should worry about all of the rust...) is a line where the inner and outer wings meet (basically right below the side of the hood, inside the engine bay). Is this likely to be the visible part of something much worse? Is this a reasonably straightforward repair?

Given that the car has been sitting for a few years, what am I likely to need to do to get it back into running condition? Obviously I would change all of the fluids and apply lots of grease to the relevant areas, but I am guessing that the carbs need a clean, and I would probably fit new diaphragms, etc. Am I likely to need to replace the brakes, or would a clean up do the job? Will I be looking at rebuilding the calipers with new seals etc? How about the hydraulic cylinders?

Sorry to go on like this. I am very excited to be getting close to owning the car I wanted as a child! I just don't want to rush in and buy a car that will never be back on the road. Any other advice you can offer would be greatfully received!
 
Bash -

Fantastic! Sounds like you're in for a great time, and it appears that you're armed and ready for the hunt.

Check out member Tony Barnhill's article, "Awakening a Sleeping MG". It'll tell you everything you need to know:

https://www.theautoist.com/awakening_a_sleeping_b.htm

Let us know how you fare.

Mickey
 
In addition to Tony's start-up list here's an oft-quoted checklist for examining cars:

https://mr2.com/TEXT/usedcarfaq.txt

Lots there... maybe more than you want to pursue but it will give you ideas. I would certainly use a magnet in all the likely spots where bondo may lurk under the paint. That can be one of the nastiest surprises, turning a simple respray into major body work. Just use a small magnet with a tpae wrapped around it to protect the paint. The tape will weaken the magnet which is good as you want it to be sensitive to any layers thicker than a coat of paint.
 
Bash,

Great! I hope it's a good one for you.

Tony's article is great. The only thing I would add, is to pull the spark plugs and shoot some oil into the cylinders before hand cranking the engine.

A good thing to know is how many miles are on the engine, and exactly what "a bit Rough" is. That could be like "a bit pregnant".

HTH

Keith
 
Read this completely before visiting the car

https://vtr.org/TR6/TR6-buying.shtml

Check out what they say about visible surface rust at the seams. Make sure you get on the ground and examine the fram and rust areas from UNDER the car. (wear clothes to get dirty in). A new paint job can be hiding misery beneath....
 
Hi Bash.....
I can sense your excitement in your posting.
You talk a lot about mechanical problems and getting it going.
Believe me when I say that's the easy (and relatively cheap) part. It's MUCH more important to check it out for rust, particularly in the frame, so as Kindofblue say's, plan to get dirty (bring coveralls) get the car up on jackstands (safely) and inspect the frame particularly at the rear suspension trailing arms. There will be surface rust on the frame but you need to figure out if the rust has or will shortly be perforating the frame sections. Feel around the top side of the frame where you can get access.
Geo Hahn explained how to check for body rust under the paint, the car has likely been somewhat restored at some point so expect to find some evidence of filler somewhere, you just need to ascertain how much. Check particularly the top of the fenders front and back, thats where the mud etc builds up inside the wheelwell. It may still be ok even with some filler but then it's a price negotiating issue.
 
When checking out my TR, I used an ice pick to poke around the mounting bolts just above the lower front lip of the frame member at the swing arm and a refrigerator magnet to check for filler. AltaKnight is right..mechanicals are far easier to deal with dollar wise than sheetmetal or a bad frame.
 
Thanks for the replies. I know that body and chassis condition is much more important than the mechanical side of things. I had planned to take a magnet for the bodywork and a screwdriver to check the frame condition - at the risk of sounding like a total idiot, how hard should I be pressing? If there is surface rust, should I try scratching it to see if there is "good" metal underneath? I guess that if the screwdriver goes through the frame anywhere I should forget my excitement and walk away from the car! Is there any easy way to see whether the rust inside the frame is getting out of control?

I was planning to go to the local college for a welding course, since I expect to have to do at least some work on the body - new floors seem to be a standard requirement on any TR6 I see in the price range I am looking at. Am I being overly optimistic? Will a few months of evening classes prepare me to put new floors (or whatever) into a TR6?

Thanks again for the help and advice
 
Poking the Frame

Just push/tap on the metal portions that are suspect. Don't go too hard. Anything that isn't supportive (i.e. metal) wont hold a screwdriver. You wont be creating any new holes either if you push through the rust.

Scrape away any caked on mud to see underneath. Make sure you check out the upper and lower portions of the important "T-Shirt" pressing where the exhaust runs through it. Swelling in this area is a tell tale sign of problems.
 
Re: Poking the Frame

This link https://www.wbclassics.com/tr6bg/bg.html is an excellent source for buying info, with plenty of good pix, and the owner a good source for parts. Pay real close attention to the rear frame. I just went thru the purchase process one year ago....the voice off experience - mine was good anyway.
Good luck, Steve
 
Re: Poking the Frame

Hi Bash,

Reading one of Roger William's books recently, I noticed his first suggestion when buying a car. He thinks it's best to not even look at the car right away. Instead spend some time chatting with the seller to become acquainted and decide if you feel they are trustworthy and the sort of person you'd feel comfortable handing a chunk of money to purchase the car. If you don't feel comfortable, he suggests walking away at the first opportunity.

Of course, some sellers are "pros" at making potential customers feel comfortable and ready to part with their hard-earned money. Most of them work on used car lots. So, this suggestion is probably most useful with private parties selling their own cars.

Obviously, this is an opportunity to ask about any accidents or problems the seller is aware of, and to listen to their tales of the car and how it was used and maintained.

Since Triumphs tend to rust from the inside out, *any* sign of rust on the outside is a red flag to look for more severe problems underneath. Look at the fender areas from inside the engine compartment and trunk, as well as up from underneath. If the front ones are rusty, likely the rear ones are too.

Likely a seller will not be pleased if you start poking holes in the car, literally, with a screwdriver.

Take a good flashlight with fresh batteries and one of those small mirrors to peer inside hard to reach places. Maybe a notepad would be useful, too.

On to the car. In addition to the already suggested areas, also look closely at:

1. The bottom of the fenders, where they overlap the rockers.
2. The bottom of the doors.
3. The rockers, inside and out.
4. The floors underneath the carpeting, about where your feet would rest, and in particular the driver's side directly under the clutch and brake master cylinders (which leak when cars sit in storage, often rotting the floor out quickly).
5. The "rear seat" shelf under the carpeting (a common quick fix of broken diffential mounting stud is to cut a hole there and weld from above).
6. The bottom of the B-post, from inside the cockpit, especially try to loosen some of the vinyl cover and see if it's rusted through underneath.
7. The frame rails in the very front and back.
8. The angled strut from the shock tower down to the main frame rail (tends to rust near the base, just above where it's welded to the main rail, also look for any sign of a bend or crimp which means accident damage).
9. The main frame rails just behind the front wheels, as seen from the wheel well (i.e., where spray from the tires will mostly hit it). Look for rust and any dents or wrinkles, signaling accident damage.
10. Pull out the spare tire and examine the bottom of the trunk for rust and for signs of accident damage.

The rust you noted *could* signal severe problems. That seam where the fenders are bolted to the inner fenders is vulnerable to road spray (muck, salt in the winter, moisture all year round) and both fender and inner fender can be ruined once water gets past the original sealant. Further, it's a sign of other things, like the baffles in between the fenders, right behind the front wheel. There are also seals around those and if they have given up, moisture, mud and muck get trapped behind potentially ruining the sides of the footwells and the front of the rocker panels.

Everything is repairable, I'm sure, but at how much cost? Worst case, if the inner and outer front fenders need to be replaced, you are looking at probably $2000 worth of parts and $1000 to $2000 worth of *skilled* body work to make everything fit correctly... then the cost of painting on top of that.

If this is reflected in the asking price, it might be okay with you. If not, it's a negotiating point.

On the other hand, the floor underneath the master cylinders might be patch-repaired for relatively little, maybe a couple hundred dollars.

You are taking a big risk buying a non-running car. Who knows why it was parked and never driven again. If the seller says it was "running rough" that could mean so many things. The price should really reflect that it's not running and can't be inspected for so many things! Assume that much will be needed.

I hope this scares you a little bit, because I'd hate for you to get in too deeply with problems with your first Triumph. On the other hand, I truly hope you look very closely at this car and find it's far better than expected and exactly what you want!

Oh, and another of Roger William's suggestions is to never buy the first car you look at. I'd add to maybe come back to it later, provided it's still available and compares well with several other candidates you've closely examined during your search. On the other hand, I have to admit to having made an impulse buy or two myself.

Hope this helps!

Alan Myers
San Jose, Calif.
'62 TR4 CT17602L (the third car I looked at, back in 1977)
 
[ QUOTE ]
When checking out my TR, I used an ice pick to poke around the mounting bolts just above the lower front lip of the frame member at the swing arm and a refrigerator magnet to check for filler.

[/ QUOTE ]
A good way to check frame , structural, & suspension sheetmetal for thinness or rust is to use an automatic center punch with the tension set to medium. Sound metal will just leave a shallow, pin John Thomas sized impression. Rotten or very thin metal will leave a larger dent or go through. It does very little damage to the metal & can be used fairly unobtrusively. Experiment a bit on other metals first to get an idea of what to do & look for.
D
 
Most importantly, after all this discussion, make sure you post and tell us what you found when you looked at it!
Dont disappear after all this.........
 
Man, you guys are good.But ya missed one. Take a coat hanger, cut a long piece off and bend one end at a 90 degree angle appx 3 in long.Stick it in one of the frame weep holes and scrape it around.Then stick your little finger in the hole and pull out what ever flaked off.Little bity dusty stuff, no problem. Thicker flakes dime size...Hmmmmm.
 
Re: Poking the Frame

Wow! What great replies and advice. I am really grateful to you all for your help. DOn't worry - I have no intention of disappearing - if I buy this car I am likely to be on these forums asking for advice about rust repair for many years to come (well, I am bound to miss something, even with all of the grat advice!)

This won't be my first Triumph - I bought a TR7 when I finished University (10 years ago), and that time I spent an hour or so checking that the lights went up and down, but totally missed the large rust holes all over the underside... It took me a few years to actually get it into the sort of condition I believed it was in when I bought it. That was the first TR7 I had looked at, and I made the old mistake of buying the first one I saw. I wonder if I learned my lesson? We will see on Friday, I suppose!

One other thing - I looked back at the details the seller sent, and it seems that the engine will run, but the battery is dead. If it has sat for a few years, am I making more problems trying to start it up with the old oil etc. or would this give me any idea of the engine condition? If he has been starting it up every now and then, is that a bad thing or a good thing?

I don't think I can come back to this car later - the seller is moving house and no longer has space for it, and I think that the price reflects the urgency of the sale, as well as the condition of the car. He is asking $2200, including a set of painted wire wheels. How does that sound? Looking at the stuff that sells on ebay, it seems pretty cheap, but as ever, I would value your advice or comments!

Thanks again - you guys are great!
 
Re: Poking the Frame

Bash, a TR6 for $2,200.00 is either a fantastic find or a good parts car. Beware! Sellers more oft than not know what they have and what it is worth. You can part out a TR6 on Ebay and make money on it if you have the time and space. I really think you need to take someone along that can check this car out thoroughly before you drop your hard-earned cash on it. I think a solid, restorable TR6 is worth 4-6 thou and then needs alot to make it something you would be proud to drive. Depending on your budget and knowhow to restore an LBC, be cautious on buying this car. There are plenty of 6-8 thousand dollar TR6's out there that will give you immediate gratification and will allow you to tinker on weekends to improve it. A 2-thousand-dollar-special could cost you 5-10X that initial investment and leave a very bad taste in your mouth. Then, it could be that deal of all deals. Ask an expert to tag along on Friday. You won't regret it. If the seller balks, walk away.

Bill
 
Re: Poking the Frame

Bash,welcome aboard,as you can see we are all seasoned pros here,the first 1/2 hour was free,paypal from now on.
"Bash"???...living on the wild side driving a TR with that name.
 
Now I really need your help!

Well, I just got back from my marathon poke-at-the-frame session, and I am pleased to say that the car was so solid that I couldn't refuse, especially at that price. The engine ran, and didn't sound bad at all, (at least to my relatively untrained ear!). I tried very hard to push my screwdriver through the frame in every spot people mentioned, and pretty much everywhere between those points, and all I found was surface rust. I poked the coathanger into the holes and scratched around, and got only very fine dust. I poked the sills (are they called rockers in America?), I poked the inner and outer wings, and although there is surface rust here and there, I couldn't find any "soft" metal. Even the floorpans are pretty sound - the passenger side is very good, and the driver's side has more surface rust, but again I couldn't find anything less than solid (and I spent several hours trying).

It isn't all good news, I suppose - the interior trim is no good - the current owner took most of it out, so at least I could look at the metalwork underneath. Most of the rubber bushes in the suspension need to be replaced, though I knew they would. The back brakes are stuck on, which leaves me with a bit of a problem getting it onto the trailer. Any suggestions? Also, is there a better answer to getting the car home (about 150 miles) than a U-Haul trailer?

I had intended to start the process of getting the car back into use by getting rid of the surface rust underneath and painting with some sort of chassis paint. Then I thought I would sort out the brakes and suspension bushes, but looking at how tight space is to work on things, I am forced to wonder whether it would be easier to do all that with the body off. Out of interest, how much is involved in removing (and then replacing) the body?

Anyway, thanks to everyone for the buying advice! I would not have known where to look without all of your help.
 
Re: Now I really need your help!

Sounds like you got a very good deal.

I'm not a TR6 guy so others may correct this... but I would start by backing off the handbrake adjuster to try to free the rear brakes. You could also crack open the bleed screws though I doubt that residual pressure is the problem in a car that has sat awhile.

You might price having it flatbedded home by a local towing company -- I have only done that for short distances (30 miles or so from a paint shop). Was reasonable foe that, not sure how the miles add up -- may be cheaper and simpler than dealing with U-heck.
 
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