Dead Again...

[Colin_D]

So I drove my TR6 about 200 miles over the last 2 days, I get it home in to the garage turn it off, then I went to reposition in and I only get a "RR RR" out of the starter. I checked the battery and it's got 12 volts, would a loose connection cause this or do I need a new starter??

Of couse next weekend is the local show.......

Colin

 

[tdskip]

We can get it sorted by next weekend!

How strong are your headlights without the car running?

Are your battery terminals nice and clean? Is the negative side ground to the body nice a clean?

Do it work better / worse if you try to starter her several times in a row quickly?

 

[Colin_D]

The lights are very strong. The terminals are clean. I haven't owned the car that long, where is the ground located?

 

[tdskip]

There should be a thick red or black cable that runs from the top of the negative batter post to the transmission bell-housing or frame (most likely bell-housing).

Check to make sure the connection to the bell-housing is nice and tight and the point where it connects is clean. Always start with this step when troubleshooting electrical bugs since a bad ground can make you nutty.

If you check quickly and report back we can take it from there...

 

[DrEntropy]

Okay!

Clock's runnin'!!!

Also check the connection at the solenoid. They can vibrate loose and cause resistance. CAREFUL here as th' cable is hot constantly. No wrenches to grounding points.

You've two live bodies standin' by.

 

[Colin_D]

You mean the one with oil all over it??? I just went to the garage and cleaned the cable it started right up.

I have a slight oil leak at the back of the engine I can't figure out where exactly. Is there an alternate location to connect the ground to?

Brilliant! I owe you a pint.

Cheers,
Colin

 

[DrEntropy]

Not so faast Colin. Oil on the exterior of a connection would hardly cause what you've described. Cleaning it eve less so.

I suspect your starter is on its way out: You stated the problem occurred after a run. That would allow "heat sink".... I.O.W. (In Other Words) the temp of the engine would equalise across all the large contacting devices (like the starter motor) upon shutdown plus ten minutes or so, and IF there were some marginal tolerances it could fail to spin at normal RPM.

We (tdskip & self) were talking about disconnecting all the ground points and physically cleaning the contact surfaces at those connections. Battery, tranny and chassis.

 

[Colin_D]

I disconnected the cable and cleaned back of the engine and the cable as well.

I'm not quite following you on the heat sink issue, why would the starter work again once it cools down?

 

[DeltaAir423]

Temperature = Resistance

According to Ohm's law V=IR, therefore an increase in resistance will show a drop in amperage for a given voltage. Since amperage does the work, a drop in amperage will cause a starter to fail to turn a motor. If you have a winding in the starter that is on it's way out, then your base resistance is increased, an a hot starter might cross the threshold of not working as opposed to a cold starter.

 

[DNK]

Aw Yes Darrel Ohm, Great Ping Pong player. Use to play in the league with him. :laugh:

 

[DrEntropy]

'k Don... go to your room.

Colin, if the problem recurs, a way to kinda-sorta pin down what's at fault (Rob's explanation of increasing resistance with increasing temp should NOT be taken lightly) is kinda tricky. It requires two folks in sympatico:

One to turn the key (for no MORE than two seconds at each attempt) and one to WHACK th' starter motor case unerringly with at least a 10oz hammer AT TH' SAME TIME. Repeatedly, and in a staccato rhythm. If you can find an accomplice to help you DO this, as you strike the starter motor and it suddenly spins normally the starter is at fault. It can usually be a simple matter of replacing the brushes and cleaning the commutator. Otherwise it'll mean a starter replacement.


Who says there's no VOODOO left in th' world!?!?


...I know it sounds... err... whacky... but t'is th' truth.

 

[Brosky]

Colin,

You better get it ready. Mine is in the shop and you guys will need to give strong support to the TR6 class at BLW in my absence.

Good Luck!!

 

[DrEntropy]

Oh, NICE Paul.


NO pressure there.

 

[Brosky]

Doc,

There is a "Die Hard" group of TR6 junkies at that event. There are two classes for TR6's, one with rubber bumpers and one without and there will be a ton of really nice cars in each class. Tough, but fun competition indeed.

Just the way that it should be.

The show (actually weekend) is a lot of fun with great scenic cruises, a great trip up and down the Cape Cod Canal and lot's of fun partying. My wife loves going there for the weekend, (lot's of car gals there with hubby's) but I decided to play in a golf tournament that I never get to play in since the car is in the shop.

There will be one or two trailer queens, a ton of sweet drivers and one heavy duty Chevy V-8 conversion that was done exactly right, from the ground up.

I would expect about 250-300 cars this year. Last year it was PACKED all day long.

 

[DrEntropy]

Woof.

Sounds like a hoot.

I decided to play in a golf tournament that I never get to play in since the car is in the shop.

Totally understandable.

 

[DeltaAir423]

'k Don... go to your room.

Colin, if the problem recurs, a way to kinda-sorta pin down what's at fault (Rob's explanation of increasing resistance with increasing temp should NOT be taken lightly) is kinda tricky. It requires two folks in sympatico:

One to turn the key (for no MORE than two seconds at each attempt) and one to WHACK th' starter motor case unerringly with at least a 10oz hammer AT TH' SAME TIME. Repeatedly, and in a staccato rhythm. If you can find an accomplice to help you DO this, as you strike the starter motor and it suddenly spins normally the starter is at fault. It can usually be a simple matter of replacing the brushes and cleaning the commutator. Otherwise it'll mean a starter replacement.


Who says there's no VOODOO left in th' world!?!?


...I know it sounds... err... whacky... but t'is th' truth.

Should I dive into the explanation of thermal runaway? I saw a Cessna 140 owner break down and cry because he decided to charge his battery inside the plane, and his battery experienced thermal runaway. Let's just say that He ended up getting new belly skins and stringers from the battery box back to the empenage due to the acid contamination.

 

[tdskip]

Colin - how are things going this AM?

Is she starting reliably now?

 

[DrEntropy]

Must be out puttin' miles on it.

 

[Twosheds]

Should I dive into the explanation of thermal runaway? I saw a Cessna 140 owner break down and cry because he decided to charge his battery inside the plane, and his battery experienced thermal runaway. Let's just say that He ended up getting new belly skins and stringers from the battery box back to the empenage due to the acid contamination.

Doubt it was thermal runaway since thermal runaway only affects nicads and I really doubt that a 140 would have a nicad!

I'm sure you didn't have me for Aircaft Battery class.

 

[DeltaAir423]

Should I dive into the explanation of thermal runaway? I saw a Cessna 140 owner break down and cry because he decided to charge his battery inside the plane, and his battery experienced thermal runaway. Let's just say that He ended up getting new belly skins and stringers from the battery box back to the empenage due to the acid contamination.

Doubt it was thermal runaway since thermal runaway only affects nicads and I really doubt that a 140 would have a nicad!

I'm sure you didn't have me for Aircaft Battery class.

All I remember about the 140 (this was over 10 years ago, as a freshly minted A&P), I got a call that there was a 140 that our lead was going out because the owner had problems. The battery had overheated while on the charger, and boiled over. The sulfuric acid had sat in the belly of the plane for a few hours before it was noticed. My lead immediately sent me back for baking soda and water, but by that time the damage was done.

This was the same company that put me on a DC-3 elevator reskin on my first day, and my A&P class was the first one that didn't have to build a dope and fabric wing.

Due to witnessing that, to this day, I will not put a battery on a charger, unless it is out of the car, and over a diaper mat.