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Culture Rant

waltesefalcon

Yoda
Platinum
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I just finished reading JP's post about the Sheep Detectives, which looks like a cute movie. Anyway, he mentioned that it is rated PG because it references death, and that got me to thinking. Something that I often see on here is how today's youth is glued to their phones, how they don't want to work, how they don't know how to interact, how they can't function, etc. Have any of us ever really considered that our culture and how we handle children has so drastically changed in the past 40 or so years as to create the most immature generations ever in the history of the world, and it's our fault not theirs, because we raised them. We coddle children far beyond their infancy treating them as if they are incapable of dealing with any responsibility or the realities of life. This is something I've been thinking about for a couple of months now. Two things have happened in the past two or three months involving my daughter that made me think about it. My daughter is 16 and wanted a library card in Lawton, which is about 20 miles away. I told her to drive over and get one, and she said she couldn't get one without me because she is a minor. I distinctly remember riding my bike over when I was about 10 and getting one when we first moved to Lawton. The other thing was when she wanted to adopt a dog from the Elgin pound, which is the next town over. Again, I told her to go do it, as long as she took care of it. Well, guess what else minors can't do anymore. Then, this goes back a bit farther in time, there is the issue of getting a job. It is a lot harder these days for kids to get jobs, Oklahoma now requires anyone younger than 16 to get a permit from their school to allow them to work, and no one under 14 is allowed to have a job. Even if you do have a permit the regulations over how much you can work and when you can work are pretty ridiculous. I don't know about y'all but I have been gainfully employed since I was 12, and no one legislated how much I could work, that was between me and my boss. The Federal gov't pushed the minimum age for tobacco back to 21 a few years ago, 18 year olds aren't mature enough to decide if they want to smoke but they are mature enough to elect the leader of the free world, that's a scary precedent.

We have effectively created a society in which we extend infancy into our kids' 20s and then we sit around and gripe about the youth of today. One of the things that always bugs me about teaching is that I see teachers treat their students like infants and expect them to act maturely. One thing I am often asked by other educators and parents is how I manage to have students that are so responsible and mature. My answer is simple: you can't have it both ways, if you want kids to behave like adults you have to treat them like adults. Give them responsibilities, allow them to fail, teach them what growth looks like and how to get there. I often have kids come back to me after they have gone to college to tell me that while I was the hardest teacher they had I was the one who best prepared them for life after high school. We need to quit looking at our youth and complaining about their immaturity while treating them like infants. As a society we need to get better, we need to start giving kids responsibility again so that they can learn what responsibility is. If we never allow kids to fail, if we don't allow kids to make informed decisions until after they are 21, if we coddle them in childhood, that childhood will extend into their 20s and 30s, and they will never learn independence. It really strikes a nerve with me when I see someone complain about kids but not about how we, as a society, have raised them. We are all culpable for the way this young generation has been raised and we need to take ownership of our failure in raising them.
 
We have effectively created a society in which we extend infancy ... if you want kids to behave like adults you have to treat them like adults. Give them responsibilities, allow them to fail, teach them what growth looks like and how to get there.

Amen to that! After WW2, we seemed to concentrate on getting more and more toys we didn't really need, in order to "keep up with the Jones's". We could have spent more money on improved medical and social services, but instead built sports arenas and paid people bazillions of dollars to play games. The movie Wall-E throws this back in our faces: human muscle and thinking is replaced by machine muscle and machine thinking. Just use AI systems to answer all your questions, but heaven forbid we actually check whether AI is actually right or not (can you say "Hallucinations"?)

Where are most successful EVs made? but we can't afford them due to certain federal actions. Inflation soars, job creation is stagnant. I'm a retired teacher who started with a COL adjusted pension of 3% per year - but our yearly costs for food, heating oil, gasoline, medical care, etc are up 20% year on year.

Sasse's "The Vanishing American Adult" details the declines that the author's seen over the previous decades. Let's have more fun, regardless of how it affects our own people. Nothing wrong with having bigger houses, four car garages, and a dozen "cruises" every year - until you consider what those fun things are replacing.

We're constantly scrolling for "least expensive" things we don't really need, regardless of who and where they're made. The least expensive is usually from China, leading to US job - and quality - loss. A major chip mfr has openings for 5000 workers, but few American workers know how to "learn" anymore - they watch "ow my balls" videos instead.

A friend who reached adulthood in the 1940s and 50s, often refers to those years as "back when we used to actually make things, instead of contracting them out".

ok - I'll cram it, altho' venting helps prevent internal explosions.

TM
 
ACK!
We coddle children far beyond their infancy treating them as if they are incapable of dealing with any responsibility or the realities of life.

I keep deleting thoughts and rants as replies! Spot-on, Walter. You're on the Front Lines of an unwinnable battle!!

Ya got GRIT, my friend. (y)
 
I agree with many of the points, but also have to say the work/school laws that we have now make sense to me for protecting school age people, because the power dynamics of work for people of high school age is definately rocked way too far in favor of employers.

A high schooler saying "I can't stay until midnight because I have class tomorrow" would get summarily fired without the law providing some sort of protection. Employers (particularly part time food/retail places that are commonly a person's 1st job) treat their employees horribly and then are the first ones to claim "no one wants to work". Laws requiring employers to take school requirements into account are needed now, because managers and corporations certainly don't give a you-know-what about their workers anymore.
 
Well said Walter.
When we moved here,I made a lot less money than I did in California,
so I adjusted my lifestyle to that.Now I rarely buy things that I don't need.
Since I don't have any more room for inside storage,I'm not buying more
cars either.
I however do want more cars.
 
I agree with many of the points, but also have to say the work/school laws that we have now make sense to me for protecting school age people, because the power dynamics of work for people of high school age is definately rocked way too far in favor of employers.

A high schooler saying "I can't stay until midnight because I have class tomorrow" would get summarily fired without the law providing some sort of protection. Employers (particularly part time food/retail places that are commonly a person's 1st job) treat their employees horribly and then are the first ones to claim "no one wants to work". Laws requiring employers to take school requirements into account are needed now, because managers and corporations certainly don't give a you-know-what about their workers anymore.
I agree with you. We needed some protections for our children that were not in place when we were young. I just believe that in many ways we've gone too far.
 
I just finished reading JP's post about the Sheep Detectives, which looks like a cute movie. Anyway, he mentioned that it is rated PG because it references death, and that got me to thinking. Something that I often see on here is how today's youth is glued to their phones, how they don't want to work, how they don't know how to interact, how they can't function, etc. Have any of us ever really considered that our culture and how we handle children has so drastically changed in the past 40 or so years as to create the most immature generations ever in the history of the world, and it's our fault not theirs, because we raised them. We coddle children far beyond their infancy treating them as if they are incapable of dealing with any responsibility or the realities of life. This is something I've been thinking about for a couple of months now. Two things have happened in the past two or three months involving my daughter that made me think about it. My daughter is 16 and wanted a library card in Lawton, which is about 20 miles away. I told her to drive over and get one, and she said she couldn't get one without me because she is a minor. I distinctly remember riding my bike over when I was about 10 and getting one when we first moved to Lawton. The other thing was when she wanted to adopt a dog from the Elgin pound, which is the next town over. Again, I told her to go do it, as long as she took care of it. Well, guess what else minors can't do anymore. Then, this goes back a bit farther in time, there is the issue of getting a job. It is a lot harder these days for kids to get jobs, Oklahoma now requires anyone younger than 16 to get a permit from their school to allow them to work, and no one under 14 is allowed to have a job. Even if you do have a permit the regulations over how much you can work and when you can work are pretty ridiculous. I don't know about y'all but I have been gainfully employed since I was 12, and no one legislated how much I could work, that was between me and my boss. The Federal gov't pushed the minimum age for tobacco back to 21 a few years ago, 18 year olds aren't mature enough to decide if they want to smoke but they are mature enough to elect the leader of the free world, that's a scary precedent.

We have effectively created a society in which we extend infancy into our kids' 20s and then we sit around and gripe about the youth of today. One of the things that always bugs me about teaching is that I see teachers treat their students like infants and expect them to act maturely. One thing I am often asked by other educators and parents is how I manage to have students that are so responsible and mature. My answer is simple: you can't have it both ways, if you want kids to behave like adults you have to treat them like adults. Give them responsibilities, allow them to fail, teach them what growth looks like and how to get there. I often have kids come back to me after they have gone to college to tell me that while I was the hardest teacher they had I was the one who best prepared them for life after high school. We need to quit looking at our youth and complaining about their immaturity while treating them like infants. As a society we need to get better, we need to start giving kids responsibility again so that they can learn what responsibility is. If we never allow kids to fail, if we don't allow kids to make informed decisions until after they are 21, if we coddle them in childhood, that childhood will extend into their 20s and 30s, and they will never learn independence. It really strikes a nerve with me when I see someone complain about kids but not about how we, as a society, have raised them. We are all culpable for the way this young generation has been raised and we need to take ownership of our failure in raising them.
I don't get many interactions with today's 'youts', except my nextdoor neighbors.
They are polite without being sappy and more adult like than most of the adults I do have interactions with.
I don't know what makes them better human beings than I was at that age.
They regularly come by the house, when they are on breaks from school, asking if they can help out.
When they do a job, I don't have to micro-manage them, and their work is excellent.
I don't ever see them with their phones out, I even had to ask them if they even owned one.
Last week they came by with one of their classmates, and the result was sub standard.
So, is it something about how their parents guided them growing up?
One thing I do notice is they don't engage in any political discussions with me.
They appear to be critical thinkers though and I would trust them with anything.
So I'm hopeful that there might be a future of some better human adults in the near term.

I just watched the trailer for Sheep Detectives and it looks like a hoot.
The cast appears to be top notch players and I easily suspended my usual skepticism of AI production.
 
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I've heard of kids like that! They really do exist?
We have neighbors across the street from us with
two sons who graduated high school a few years back,
who are both still living at home.They park their cars in
the driveway,& when it snows guess who shovel the driveway?
The parents do.
I've never seen those kids doing any kind of work outside of
their house.
 
Interesting.
As to young folks spending, phone apps make it so easy, both to do the spending and not really "see" what you're shelling out. I saw a story that when young folks were asked to summarize what they spent most found they ere spending 2, 3 times what they thought since nothing was coming out of a pocket, just tap the terminal with the phone. Combine with they heavy tendency for young men, all the way down to mid/early teens to use gambling apps and the money disappears.

Don't get me wrong, tech has done many great things, like allowing all of us to have this conversation or to bring up cameras and see what's happening in cities all round the world real time. My grandmother who traveled with a teacher's group during summers in the 50s/60s would be fascinated to see what's happening in downtown London or Paris or elsewhere in actual real time.

But with the good comes the bad, having apps that decide what you really want to see and read. AI that so far at least may or may not be truthful in what's presented so you don't know what to believe. And AI "friends", who seem to exist to tell you everything's ok and you're always right or being picked on by others. Or to be used to bully someone now in front of the whole world with stuff unknown a generation ago. So easy to stay home and have everything delivered so never learn to live in larger society on a day to day basis.

One thing about growing up without all that stuff is that youngsters aren't all learning how to deal with mean folks on a face to face basis. How to make friends and get out just for the sake of wandering or hiking or such. And just as important, how to deal with those you may end up living next to or working with or in class who have personalities that maybe they don't jive with. I've seen that young women seem to be more and more having virtual boyfriends because they never question or question or just say "not now I'm busy". As a result, actual human face to face interactions become more and more uncomfortable so they stay home playing games and such. And all across the industrialized world this seems to be resulting in births not keeping up with all of use getting old and moving on to watever is next.

I'm not saying all young folks are this way, but in the industrialized world it does seen to be becoming more and more common. And in the long run maybe leading to the demise of us.

OK, rant over, for now....
 
I always try to pay with cash whenever I can,even gasoline.
That way I'm not surprised when the credit card bill shows up
the next month.I also try to pay that bill off every month.I'm
getting the use of their money for free.
Kids today (overall) are slaves to their phones.I think that
it's FOMO (Fear Of Missing Out).Most at work can't go 10 minutes
without checking their phone.
 
I see the folks at the grocery standing in corners with their phones rather than working with customers. Same at other stores, you have to hope someone looks up to get their attention. While I have my phone with me most times, it's in my pocket in case I need it for a call, not for scrolling videos or messages or such.
 
I always try to pay with cash whenever I can,even gasoline.
That way I'm not surprised when the credit card bill shows up
the next month.I also try to pay that bill off every month.I'm
getting the use of their money for free.
Kids today (overall) are slaves to their phones.I think that
it's FOMO (Fear Of Missing Out).Most at work can't go 10 minutes
without checking their phone.
I am always a cash user, unfortunately buying gas with cash has become difficult (unless you are a real math wizard who can calculate exactly how much you need to buy in advance because they will make you pay first). I broke down and started buying a gift card (with cash) for the store I buy gas at, and then use that to pay at the pump for the gas. Yes it means they get to hold my money for a few weeks because I load the card with enough for a month or so, but I figure I lose less that way than trying (and failing) to calculate exactly how much gas to buy and hoping I get within a dollar or so worth. It also means I can get gas when the actual payment booth is closed since the pumps are on 24-7. The gift card doesn't have any identity information attached to it like a credit card would.

I never quite understood this whole "fear of missing out" thing. I assumed it was something invented by marketing types, do people really fall for it?
 
I very much appreciate this rant - but I think we have to be very clear that kids aren't the problem, parents (and by now grandparents) are. It's not kids making those rules, it's called helicopter parenting not helicopter kidding (or whatever) They are our product - and I would also say the natural outcome of a fear based economy. (which we have lived in for a very long time)

A while back I was listening to a radio program about kids not playing outside (till the streetlights come on) like we did. The speaker made the very valid point that a significant problem is that even if kids are allowed out to play there aren't other kids to play with - the baby boom is well and truly over and in two income homes (which are required these days) we don't have the mom police that every street had in those days.

More to the fear thing, h identified two things, 1. two children abducted and killed by strangers in the USA within a couple of years of each other (late 70's/ early 80's) which because of their media coverage created an inordinate amount of fear even though none familial abductions are rare and 2. Putting missing children on milk cartons - which made it appear a much bigger problem than it is.

So, to repeat, let's not blame the kids for a world they did not create.
 
JP that was my very reason for ranting in the first place. This griping about 'kids today' fron older folks makes no sense to me. It is akin to building a house from the ground up and then trying to blame the house when the roof leaks.

We're all in this together and if you aren't a fan of how young people are turning out, look no further than your bathroom mirror and ask yourself how you can be a better mentor to those around you.
 
JP that was my very reason for ranting in the first place. This griping about 'kids today' fron older folks makes no sense to me. It is akin to building a house from the ground up and then trying to blame the house when the roof leaks.

We're all in this together and if you aren't a fan of how young people are turning out, look no further than your bathroom mirror and ask yourself how you can be a better mentor to those around you.
Agreed - slagging kids these days is like shooting fish in a barrel.

Aside from kids on their phones. (and note the various lawsuits about social media being intentionally addictive), my kids and nieces and nephews

1. educated daughter - laid off last September has applied to literally hundreds of places with no luck in part because of AI
2. nephew with Business degree - working in a restaurant and living at home because he doesn't make enough
3. Educated niece - working in wineries and living at home because she doesn't make enough (in fairness also travels the world teaching scuba diving)
4. Other nephew - business degree and working in a restaurant in British Columbia and sharing a house

Ironically my son who never finished university has some of the most consistant employment as a tree planter (he is 39 so in management now) and a contractor - but even there much of his work is under the table and he lives in a basement apartment owned by friends. It is a tough time.
 
Jobs where you physically need to be there for now at least seem to be the future. Office type work with tech and AI can go anywhere on the world. My IT work was eliminated when I retired the start of the year since most of the team I was part of is in India. That's not a complaint, just stating reality. Things like business degrees, and my middle niece has something called Global Sustainability, can be done from practically anywhere as long as the person doing it is willing to adjust working hours as necessary. And with AI that some predict will eliminate as many as 500m jobs worldwide, we could see a serious change in the job market, shoot the young folks as a whole are already finding entry positions drying up. Could be back to a society like the middles ages, nobility holding all the resources and peasants scraping by at some point. There are times I'm glad not to be a 20 something starting working life these days.
 
When I moved to Roanoke I was saddened to see that you had to apply
for jobs online.Some people look great online,but can't do an actual job well.
I had one job that I applied for,but never got,& couldn't talk to an actual
person to explain myself & qualifications to.I felt that if I could have done that,
I'd easily get the job,as it was almost exactly the type of work that I'd done for
the fire department.
 
There are a *lot* of folks who feel the same. Digital algorithms determine whether a human will ever see a job application.

Applicants can buy lists of "algorithm positive" job skills, so the digital personnel department may choose the applicants who have those skills written with digital appeal.

Very sad.
TM
 
Most of my high school friends are addicted to their phones, but the most disturbing part is that they are completely aware of their addiction.
I have never understood how phones provide entertainment.
 
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