Crypt Clutch 2nd Look-see

[Tinster]

The Crypt clutch replacement attempt has now
been halted except for cash flow going out.

I still have been unable to identify the make
and model and year of the Crypt Car's tranny.
The Magic Clutch kit from The Roadster factory
was ordered for a TR6 and as posted before
the clutch pedal fork shaft does not work.

I am having a fork shaft custom machined and it
is costing me more $$ than I paid for the entire
TRF Magic Kit.

It hit me driving today, that other TRF pieces might
not be correct either. I can quickly see $thousands
going into custom machined clutch replacement assembly
components. I am afraid to pull the flywheel to replace
the leaking oil seal behind it because I have a TR6 oil seal replacement.

I have to believe the existing clutch/tranny/engine
is something standard out of Moss, etc. I do not believe
anyone had all these pieces custom fabricated.

All the existing pieces functioned as a unit.


I am kinda running out of $$ for this. I am just over
$2,000. on the clutch project to date and have nothing
yet to install because the pieces I ordered do not fit my
existing. ($2k includes new carpet interior)

I need to know what this tranny is and what model TR
it came from. If I have to throw out the TR6 Magic Clutch
and purchase a TR4A clutch or TR5 ot Tr2, etc. I am willing
to do that. I cannot afford to custom machine a new drive assembly for this car. I can buy a rebuilt tranny for about
$2k. (if I knew which one to buy.) But my tranny runs fine.

So I am stepping back until this tranny is identified
and the proper replacement clutch components can be
obtained.

Will all the combined talent of this forum please take
another look-see and try to identify this tranny?

And then tell me what clutch assembly to purchase
to fit this tranny? The engine block CC4195E is from
a TR250.


Thanks so much- dale

 

[Mickey Richaud]

Dale -

I have some tech. info at home that may help - will check it out later this afternoon and let you know what I find.

Mickey

 

[PeterK]

Gearbox CD5909 crosses to a 1968 TR250, engine CC4195E is also from a 1968 TR250 according to my Moss catalog chart.

Starting in 1969, the TR6 engine begins with number CC25001E while gearboxes run from CD1 in 1968 to CD20000 beginning in 1970. Give or take a few numbers, of course.

 

[gsalt57tr3]

I spent 2000 rebuilding my tranny.

Only to have the same problem a month later.

Unless your a purist, the HDVA system is the way to go.

Peter will probably agree, the clutch is outstanding and the Toyota tranny is bulletproof and in good, cheap supply.

 

[Tinster]

Mickey-any help appreciated.
I'm really stuck this time.

PeterK- Thanks, I found that cross reference
as well.

The problem comes from the Moss and TRF
always lumping the TR250 with the TR6
when they sell parts.

The pedal fork/shaft is quite different even
to the naked eye. The TR6 shaft is simply wrong
for my gearbox. So are the TR6 shaft bushings.

Which brings into much doubt the TR6 throw out
bearing, TR6 clutch fork, TR6 oil seals, TR6 gaskets
and TR6 clutch assembly I have sitting in a box.

I can't even imagine what it would $$ cost me to
have a throw-out bearing custom machined here on
the island. And I can't find any TR250 clutch
components listed anywhere.

My drive trane has to be stock "something". I just
need to figure out what I have and order the correct
parts.

I thought this would be a weekend project once the car
was gutted. That was back pre-Christmas.
What a nightmare!

regards,

d

 

[Harry_Ward]

Dale,

For what it's worth and from what I can see Moss does not differentiate the 250 from the 6 when ordering clutch components. Certain gearbox items they do but not clutch?

https://www.mossmotors.com/Shop/ViewProducts.aspx?PlateIndexID=32782

This is the TR4 clutch parts page which shows the bolt and the groove in the shaft as you have. Good Luck!

https://www.mossmotors.com/Shop/ViewProducts.aspx?PlateIndexID=29130#41

Maybe the different shafts will fit all (4,250,&6) and your shaft was previously replaced? What a nightmare...sorry.

 

[Tinster]

What is a HDAV?
How much does it cost?
Where is it purchased?

How difficult is it to install one?
I know very little of auto mechanics.

regards,

dale

 

[Harry_Ward]

Dale,
Reference 44 is the shaft but there's a problem there as well.
I'll let Moss explain it,

https://www.mossmotors.com/SiteGraphics/Text/596-051.doc

 

[gsalt57tr3]

HVDA is a 5 speed toyota transmission mated to the Triumph engine with an hydrolic throw out. I press in about an inch on my clutch to shift.

https://www.hvdaconversions.com/

 

[Tinster]

gsalt:

So I would have to purchase a Toyota tranny
and then purchase the conversion kit to install
the Toyota tranny?

Sounds pricey, like how much $4K?

regards,

d

 

[richards]

A rebuilt W58 Toyota trans will cost about $900. That is what I paid at Anaheim Gear, Anaheim Calif. (NFI),
Then the HVDA kit was about $1500.

 

[gsalt57tr3]

I got mine for about 400.

They are very available.

total package was about 2500 including labor

 

[Tinster]

Oh my!

I've got $2,000 already spent, now another
$2,500 in parts plus $$ to ship to Puerto Rico
plus maybe another $1,000. in garage space rent
and mechanic's time??

WoW!!! That's getting close to $6,000.
to replace a broken tapered pin in the
clutch fork. My, oh, my!!

Wendy will have only a single word to say
if I discuss this with her.

"CRUSHER"

d

 

[TR6oldtimer]

Dale,
Don't go nuts over this. There is nothing wrong with your transmission, so until something does go wrong, keep it.

You are hung up on the d**n keeper bolt on the clutch shaft. Forget about it. If it was so important, Triumph would have kept it on later models. If you really really want one, buy the ones listed for the 4 o4 4a and the appropriate bushes. They will work. How do I know this? Because I have a 4, 250, and 6 gearbox and the clutch shafts all have the same dimensions.

Everything else you have for the 250 gearbox and clutch is just fine. Install it.

The rear oil seal for the 250 engine is the same as the one for the 6. No problem here.

Get your fly wheel dressed and reassemble with the new parts. You will feel so much better once it is done.

Ray

Be sure you have new gear box oil on your list of to dos.

 

[Mickey Richaud]

Dale -

After looking at my stuff here, I can't add anything to what's already been mentioned. And I'm with Ray - sounds like he's been there. Go with it!

Mickey

 

[swift6]

Whoa... Back away from the Toyota Transmission for a moment Dale. I thought you wanted to get some spending under control here. That conversion will run you another $2,000 to start. Nothing wrong with it and it would give you a more 'modern' feeling clutch but it is taking you down a whole new road at the same time.

Lets get your Triumph transmission operating. Lets focus on it first.

Now you have to understand that the TR2 thru the TR6 was an evolution. The TR250 is not differentiated from the TR6 in most of the mechanical areas because there isn't a whole lot of difference between them other than appearance. The technology in the TR6 was old when the cars were brand new.

What about your clutch cross shaft is wrong other than the groove for the bolt? What is wrong with the bushings? Are they the wrong size? How does your old throw out bearing compare to the new one? Same with the fork?

If it is only the depth of the bushings and the missing groove for the cross shaft we can work with that. Triumph ended up deleting that groove and bolt feature later on, probably as a cost cutting measure, so if that is the only difference I wouldn't worry too much about it.

The transmissions from the TR2-TR6 didn't change that much and they were also used in the Triumph Saloons and The Stag. It wasn't economical to change things unnecessarily and these cars were all built to a price point. It wouldn't have been that uncommon for left over parts from the TR250/TR5 run to be used in early TR6's. Its also possible that your transmission case was from an earlier car and the right parts were put into it in order to make it work with the six cylinder engine and I don't mean by the factory. Given the strangeness of your cars history with Pedro the parts boy... anything just might be possible. Moss lists that cross shaft with the bolt only on TR2- early TR4, Late TR4-4A show the same cross shaft as the TR6 (same part #).

Your rear crank seal will be fine. The difference between TR250 and TR6 engines are very small. Mostly related to differences in the engine block casting. TR250-early TR6 have a different crankshaft and flywheel but even those can be swapped into later TR6's if they are treated as a 'unit'. The difference in the crankshaft is the length of the rear section (where the flywheel attaches), not the diameter where the seal is.

Take a deep breath and lets figure out what about your new parts doesn't work mechanically, not just visually. Many 'new' parts don't look exactly like they came from the factory and many also need a little hand 'massaging' to fit sometimes. Nature of the beast on these cars. Not everything is 'plug and play' on them.

Keep your chin up. /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/smile.gif

 

[swift6]

Wow, in the time it took me to write my response (amongst other distractions) it was all said. /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif

 

[Guest]

I concur with the above. But, what scares me most is what is inside that gearbox??? I think you will be ok, just rig it to go in and be done with it. A TR250 tranny will fit a TR6 engine, and vice-versa. Fix the seal, put in the cross shaft (mine slides in and out if the fork weren't on.) and install the darn clutch. If you want my flywheel, it's yours, just needs a new ring gear, which I have. Mine is as shiny as a mirror. I can attempt to put the ring gear on with the ole oven/freezer trick and ship it. Will only cost you 48 bucks for the ring gear and a zillion dollars for shipping to PR. Or whatever a heavy flywheel cost to ship to PR, I am sure 50-100 bucks???


Dale, you really, really need one of the gearheads from the forum down there. Hey, I have a good idea, let's about 10 or 15 of us all meet at Dale's for a winter vacation and fix his car. Any takers?

 

[Guest]

Oh heck, I don't have a passport...

 

[swift6]

Don't start that again Bill. Dale might really go off. /bcforum/images/%%GRAEMLIN_URL%%/wink.gif