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CA Emission Laws

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Re: To Nunyas, Re: CA Emission Laws

[ QUOTE ]
I love to talk about booze, too, but on the subject of emissions (lol) I am working on a fuel injection retrofit kit for Midget 1500s that should get you passed any emmission test they can throw at you. It will use all the car's original emission equipment and should modestly improve power and fuel economy. It is my hope to offer this kit to the public sometime next year. The price range should be in the $800 to $900 range.

Morris "Guiness in the fridge" '79 Midget

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm? That sounds like a dang site better deal price wise compared to what Moss Motor’s is talking about asking for their EFI kit. Of course we may never know as it’s release date has been repeatedly pushed out for the last three years now.

Now I realize you are talking about a kit for a Midget and not a late B, but are you going to try to get CARB (California Air Resources Board) certification for your kit? Now I realize that the cost of the certification is rather high and possibly prohibitive. But if you plan on selling these to any body on the left coast – you’re going to need that CARB number. Otherwise it won’t pass the emissions visual inspection under the bonnet – and it won’t matter at all how good the tail pipe numbers are.

However just so you know I ain’t trying to rain on your parade – I will gladly volunteer my 78MGB as your sacrificial lamb should you want to pursue the certification?
 
Re: To Nunyas, Re: CA Emission Laws

I have a complete emission setup for a midget if you need to borrow or trade to get your smog done. I do not now work there but still have many friends that do. Yes we probably could tast right out of the tanks.
 
Re: To Nunyas, Re: CA Emission Laws

Yes, it will be a TBI set up. More for the sake of economy than simplicity.
 
Re: To Nunyas, Re: CA Emission Laws

LL- I may be down for a trade/purchase. I'm trying to pick up another '79 that has a Weber conversion with a manual choke. It's such a steal I can hardly pass it up. Just waiting to see if she's sold it already...
 
Re: To Nunyas, Re: CA Emission Laws

[ QUOTE ]
LL- I may be down for a trade/purchase. I'm trying to pick up another '79 that has a Weber conversion with a manual choke. It's such a steal I can hardly pass it up. Just waiting to see if she's sold it already...

[/ QUOTE ]

Good luck Ian,

But aren't you concerned about not passing smog with the Weber conversion? As I understand it the Peoples Republic of Kalifornia’s emissions rules don’t allow for any conversions to pass even if you bring the car in from out of state.

While some might sneak by a smog check technician that wouldn’t know an SU from a Zenith Stromberg, you could never be sure you’ll get the same guy every two years. Plus the added danger of getting randomly selected by the DMV to go to one of those extra sticky Smog Check Only stations regulated by the state. These shops aren’t allowed to do anything other than test your car and should it fail – you’ll have to take it someplace else to get it fixed and then return to that test only station until it passes. Under those conditions a Weber conversion would never pass the under bonnet visual inspection.

However I do know a fellow with a 77B that claims to have passed his smog test at one of these “test only” stations. But he didn’t have the Weber setup – he actually had the duel SU set-up but still kept his smog pump & gulp valve set-up similar to what you might see on a 1970-1974 MGB. The only additional item that he had was an aftermarket cat installed under his car. But again it would seem to be a roll of the dice every time you had to take the car in for testing.
 
Re: To Nunyas, Re: CA Emission Laws

Bret- Yeah, you're right. I wouldn't try to pass with the Weber. LLAngus said he has a whole set up that he may be willing to part with. It's ridiculous here You'd think that there would be a standard, and if you pass, you pass! Why should it matter what's on your car if you pass the standards?
 
Re: To Bret, Re: CA Emission Laws

Did this friend with the twin SU's have to fab an EGR valve for the manifolds to keep his HCs within the allowed limits? Or were the gases passing through the air injection manifold sufficient enough to keep the HCs tolerable? Or is it, that this guy just happens to know one of "those" smog test shops that aren't exactly by the book...

I know a few people (they drive "tuner cars") at work that claim to know some of these places, but I refuse to use them because my conscience would just eat away at me for cheating...
 
Re: To Bret, Re: CA Emission Laws

[ QUOTE ]
Did this friend with the twin SU's have to fab an EGR valve for the manifolds to keep his HCs within the allowed limits? Or were the gases passing through the air injection manifold sufficient enough to keep the HCs tolerable? Or is it, that this guy just happens to know one of "those" smog test shops that aren't exactly by the book...


[/ QUOTE ]

I did have a chance to look under his bonnet and there wasn’t anything. I asked him how he got around the EGR valve too. But never really said (like it was some sort of state secret or something) and just smiled. But if his story is true I assume that one of the following happened.

He found a shop to lie for him. Or he managed to convince some shop performing the testing that what his setup was legal. Or as I suggested the shop just flat out didn’t know what to look for. He might also have never taken his vehicle to a state controlled TEST ONLY facility. However as subjective as the visual inspection is, all that would be for not if he couldn’t pass the tail pipe test.

So I figure he must have de-tuned it by some means. I tend to think he opened up the valve/rocker clearance by a couple of thou and then leaned out the mixture. I’ve never tried the valve clearance, but I have read a lot on the web about folks doing this with some success. Personally however I have success leaning out my engine before a test using my Gunson CO Gas Analyzer to less than the 5.5%(+/-1%) to where it is just reading. Basically do a complete tune-up and set to factory settings then just before the test lean it out.

Now I’ve never failed the tail pipe test but I almost failed because the tech didn’t know what he was doing. Once the guy tried to fail me because he said my timing was set wrong – knowing better I argued with the guy and his boss. Only then was it was discovered that he read the timing at idle (~850RPM) and not at 1500RPMs as the tag and spec calls out. The only other legitimate failure (if you can call it that) was a leaky oil filler cap – bought a new one and passed with flying colors. There was one other close call when the technician couldn’t find the catalytic converter (located under the manifold) and the only reason I didn’t is that I heard him ask one of the other techs to help him and that’s when I told him where to look.

Adding to my notion that the testers at the State run Smog Check “ONLY” station, aren’t the sharpest tacks in the box. I’ve read over my last three emissions test results all from the same Test Only station. According to them on one visit: I didn’t have an EGR but had a PCV valve. Another test checked off my vehicle as “not” requiring a cat. As anybody familiar with the late Bs’ Zenith Stromberg setups knows – there isn’t a real PCV valve but there is a EGR valve incorporated into the manifold and there is a cat.

[ QUOTE ]

I know a few people (they drive "tuner cars") at work that claim to know some of these places, but I refuse to use them because my conscience would just eat away at me for cheating...

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I’m with you there because all these guys to is make it more difficult for the rest of us.

And that is why I am currently building a 18V with +40 pistons and a new camshaft with the earlier profiles. Along with a bunch of other goodies. But I plan on making my engine fully emissions compliant and will work with the Zenith Stromberg set-up until either Moss or someone else comes out with a CARB certified Throttle Body EFI replacement.

To help me dial it in I am also going to install a wideband 02 sensor just after the manifold outlets and before a more modern free flowing catalytic converter. Benefit: Regardless if I’m running a carb or a TB setup – the 02 sensor should be a lot more accurate than using the CO Analyzer when dialing in my Air/fuel mixture.
 
Re: To Bret, Re: CA Emission Laws

I hear ya Bret. I think the biggest thing holding me back on ditching my intake/exhaust manifold for headers and custom intake manifold is the EGR valve bit. I know something can be fab'ed to allow the fitting of one, but I've not found much info on people doing such things. The newer "50-state legal" stuff has all the fittings for emissions equipment these days... for new cars that is. I've yet to find a source where someone retro fitted new headers and intake manifolds with emissions equipment for an old car.

The fact that the stock manifold on the 74.5 and up 'Bs is a single unit doesn't seem like a good idea for performance. It's easier to place an EGR valve in the system like that, but if you replace the system what do you do about the EGR. Every source I've found so far hasn't been interested in maintaining an EGR on a "classic" car with manifold upgrades.

I dunno. Maybe, when the time comes I ought to just order some headers, go to a exhaust pipe bending shop, and see if they can fab up a new intake and integrate an EGR fitting.
 
Re: To Bret, Re: CA Emission Laws

[ QUOTE ]
<<SNIP>>
I dunno. Maybe, when the time comes I ought to just order some headers, go to a exhaust pipe bending shop, and see if they can fab up a new intake and integrate an EGR fitting.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ya know they say great minds think alike. I too have thought of trying the same thing myself. Sadly the problem is as I discovered – the mere act of removing the “manifold” is a violation of our state’s prudish emissions laws. Believe it or not but the manifold is considered a part of the emissions system. It doesn’t matter if it works the same or even better.

So not to say it couldn’t be done – but to be truly compliant, you’d need to get that modified manifold certified. But the cost of the certification process is a heck of a lot more difficult time & money-wise than the actual development phase. So much so I'd bet that is the reason we haven't had someone come up with a replacement manifold yet. Probably not a large enough market for it to be worth the added cost.

Here is how confusingly tragic our state is when it comes to emissions laws. Depending on who is doing the interpreting of the law – anyone who has relocated their catalytic converter anyplace other than butted up next to the exit of manifold could be a violation. Now we all know that a lot of folks have done this and in many cases the aftermarket cat they used is a much better unit than the originals or those cheap ones you get from VB or Moss as a direct replacement.

While I haven’t started it yet I have collected several of the late model manifolds in my garage that I plan on playing around with. I need to research it some more, but I believe there has to be a way to make that manifold flow better than it does. I was thinking of a using a sand or bead blaster to smooth out internal opening of the cast iron manifold to help it flow better. Similar to polishing a head ports. Granted it ain't going to gain much with the stock Zenith Stromberg bolted up. But it might be significantly better with a Moss EFI kit (CARB legal) bolted in place of the old carb. Depending on how much mapping the Moss unit allows and the condition of the rest of the motor - who knows?

Problem is I don’t know how far I can take the Manifold without ruining the integrity of the casting and/or run the risk of making it too thin.

Guess we'll have to wait & see.
 
Re: To Bret, Re: CA Emission Laws

Boy are you guys spooked by CDMV. First of all in our county you only have to test when you change ownership. The smog police are not goig to come to you house to check if all the pieces are on the car (I'm not saying remove them). And as most hi performance car buff do know a well tuned engine gets enough better mileage to make up any difference in smog emissions. I am a person that believes the government is way beyond what they should be doing. I am offering the smog setup so you can pass the test. The rules of smog are made to create "outlaws" out of anyone that touches an engine. Just think about the times you can not get the exact duplicate part and have to use a substitute that works as good as the original. I'm all for keeping with in the spirit of the law, but I'm not going to worry about a product that actually hurts the working of a great little engine.
 
Re: To Bret, Re: CA Emission Laws

[ QUOTE ]
Boy are you guys spooked by CDMV. First of all in our county you only have to test when you change ownership. The smog police are not goig to come to you house to check if all the pieces are on the car (I'm not saying remove them). And as most hi performance car buff do know a well tuned engine gets enough better mileage to make up any difference in smog emissions.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don’t think we’re spooked. Not meant as a dig but you should consider yourself lucky you only have to test when you change ownership. There are a number of counties that are less populated that have similar emissions testing practices.

But I think your assumption regarding a well tuned vehicle isn’t really the point here. As I said in my earlier post – you can indeed pass the tail pipe test & still fail the emissions test on the visual inspection. In-fact I’ve seen a number of cars pass tail pipe numberswise, but fail because they were missing a required emissions component like a smog pump, EGR or blown-out Cat.

And yes I would agree that the smog police ain’t going to go knocking on our garage doors at 3am to check what we have or don’t have on our vehicles. But its easy to see why you living in a county with little (dare I say lax?) emissions testing, have a different perspective on this issue than the rest of your fellow Californians who live in counties with more strict emissions testing. Now in case you haven’t guessed by reading this thread - let me assure you that it is a royal pain in the rear dealing with this every two years and it is a hot issue. I would hope you can appreciate that and be warned that just because you don't have more testing now today - dosn't mean in won't be in the future.

A friend of mine who lived Imperial County (East of San Diego Co.) actually offered to let me register my vehicle at his residence - to help avoid the smog police. But I felt that that was wrong and wouldn’t feel right taking him up on that offer.

Granted some techs are sharper than others - but the fact is if you take your vehicle in for a smog test and all the emissions components aren’t in place as they came from the factory or have CARB approved replacements. You will fail the test – regardless of what the tail pipe numbers are.

[ QUOTE ]
I am a person that believes the government is way beyond what they should be doing. I am offering the smog setup so you can pass the test. The rules of smog are made to create "outlaws" out of anyone that touches an engine. Just think about the times you can not get the exact duplicate part and have to use a substitute that works as good as the original. I'm all for keeping with in the spirit of the law, but I'm not going to worry about a product that actually hurts the working of a great little engine.

[/ QUOTE ]

While I might agree with most everything you said – short of an all out armed insurrection, it really doesn’t help those of us that are required to have our vehicles tested every two years. And without passing that test - I can’t legally register my 78B to drive it on public roadways. Even if it is a government conspiracy. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Think about it? All because a bunch of over zealous “free to be you & me, hug a tree environmentalists loony’s” got their way in our state’s pandering legislature. I and many of your fellow Californians, have to have their rides subjected to bi-annual emissions inspections "forever" if we want to keep them legally registered in this state.
 
Re: To Bret, Re: CA Emission Laws

The problem is for the 76 and on car's in so cal or anywhere else where they have the stricter emissions is the possibility of a smog test every other year. While your not going to have people sniffing around your garage you do run the possibility of having the CHP taking a look under the hood any time you mess up and have a chat and currently the chp is cracking down on people particularly the "tuner" crowd with modified cars. Granted with an MG unless you strap a wing from a Cessna on the back, a bunch of other worthless junk on the body, a huge tach and are not driving or acting like a butt head it’s not worth losing any sleep over.

It would be great to see the 30 year rolling exception brought back or at least a change to tail pipe only after 30 years.
 
Re: To Bret, Re: CA Emission Laws

[ QUOTE ]
The problem is for the 76 and on car's in so cal or anywhere else where they have the stricter emissions is the possibility of a smog test every other year. While your not going to have people sniffing around your garage you do run the possibility of having the CHP taking a look under the hood any time you mess up and have a chat and currently the chp is cracking down on people particularly the "tuner" crowd with modified cars. Granted with an MG unless you strap a wing from a Cessna on the back, a bunch of other worthless junk on the body, a huge tach and are not driving or acting like a butt head it’s not worth losing any sleep over.

It would be great to see the 30 year rolling exception brought back or at least a change to tail pipe only after 30 years.

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Great point Stewart,

My neighbor is a Motorcycle Patrol officer with the California Highway Patrol (ie CHPie) and according to him; law enforcement can perform a roadside inspection on any vehicle they pull over. That means that they could flag your vehicle for obvious illegal performance modifications that circumvent emissions and/or safety equipment. Technically if your vehicle had emissions equipment when it rolled off the assembly line, the law requires that it be kept intact and functional. Regardless of how old it is or if it is exempt from testing.

Granted the chances of a road side inspection being performed on one of our vehicles would be rare. Besides that chances are slim that your average police or highway patrol officers “acting on their own” probably wouldn’t know what to look for even if they did decide to make you pop your bonnet. But the law is clear that they do have that option should they pull someone over.

But as you pointed out California law enforcement uses this as a method to go after illegal street racers. Who are by & large – rice tuner vehicles. A common tactic that officers employ is to set up impromptu “safety inspection” checkpoints (similar to DUI checkpoints), on roads going in & out of an area where street racing commonly takes place on Fridays & Saturday nights. Usually planned for these checkpoints starts in advance when the officers involved given cheat sheets with the “things to look for” for the more common street racing vehicles. Some of the violations discovered could result in little Ricky Racer’s vehicle being impounded and towed along with a hefty fine. Once the vehicle is returned to the owner they have to have fix the violations on that vehicle, then have it inspected by a DMV referee before it is allowed back on the road.

But again I don’t think responsible collector car hobbyists such as us in the LBC world would have much to worry about as we ain’t out acting like a bunch of dysfunctional delinquents. Well ok, some of us anyway. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif
 
Re: To Bret, Re: CA Emission Laws

heh... well on the manifold side of our '76 and up LBCs, I'm pretty sure that none of the inspectors would know the difference as long as you have the appropriate devices in the approximate locations, incase your inspector happens to have a reference picture of your engine bay...

The last inspection I had the guy actually knew where the EGR was, but had a hard time with the thermal controlled airfilter... or something similar to that description. The only thing that came to my mind was the air filter assy with heater hose going down to the exhaust manifold. He was pretty thorough under the hood, but never asked me about the Cat, nor did I see him get on his hands and knees to check under the car... As for the timing, I saw him pull out his timing gun, and kind of make a half-hearted attempt at making the reading before "passing" that part.
 
Re: To Bret, Re: CA Emission Laws

[ QUOTE ]
heh... well on the manifold side of our '76 and up LBCs, I'm pretty sure that none of the inspectors would know the difference as long as you have the appropriate devices in the approximate locations, incase your inspector happens to have a reference picture of your engine bay...


[/ QUOTE ]

And there is the problem in a nut shell. Personal experience has taught me that most of the emissions inspectors at the smog test only stations probably wouldn’t know the difference between the EGR & PCV valve let alone where it is located on a late model MGB. Couple that with the fact that the laws are somewhat subjective at best leaves a lot of room for error. Some might error in our favor while others might error in the direction we wouldn’t want.

Remember my earlier post where I mentioned the tech that didn’t know how to check the timing? He said that my timing was set to 5 degrees BTDC when I knew for a fact that I’d set it to the factory setting of 10 degrees. Problem is he checked the timing at idle and not at 1500 RPMs as the manual specs out. Well, if I had relied on him I’d probably still be going back & fourth between my mechanic and the Smog Test Only station throwing my money away fighting to get my B to pass emissions.

On the flip side is that I’ve also ran across techs that where very knowledgeable and knew where to look for what was (& what wasn’t) legal.

Remember I am only talking about the Smog Test Only stations not the mechanic and/or shop that is familiar with LBCs. But if you are one of the unlucky ones to be randomly selected to go to a “Test Only” facility – you can’t count on their expertise when it comes time for registration. You either have to learn how to take care of it yourself (like I did) or pay out big bucks ($$$) to get your car ready for the test – then take it to the test only station.

In case you haven’t figured it out by now – my 78B is "more random" than most when it comes to getting randomly selected by the California DMV for the state run “Test Only” emissions test. In fact over the last 8+ years of ownership - I have had to take my car to the state run test only facility 4 of the last 5 times. The one time I didn't go to the test only station was when I first bought the car in order to register it after transfer. Why? God only knows.

That is the reason I am probably a little more vocal about this subject than most.
 
Re: To Bret, Re: CA Emission Laws

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Technically if your vehicle had emissions equipment when it rolled off the assembly line, the law requires that it be kept intact and functional. Regardless of how old it is or if it is exempt from testing.

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I'm having a heckuva time trying to read up on the law here, because they've changed it round a billion times.

I've got a 70 B with a 67 engine in it... which year applies?

John
 
Re: To Bret, Re: CA Emission Laws

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Technically if your vehicle had emissions equipment when it rolled off the assembly line, the law requires that it be kept intact and functional. Regardless of how old it is or if it is exempt from testing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm having a heckuva time trying to read up on the law here, because they've changed it round a billion times.

I've got a 70 B with a 67 engine in it... which year applies?

John

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahh! Great question. This is one that bits a lot of folks who don't take the time to look into it.

The law says that the newer applies. In the case where someone might have replaced an older car's engine with a newer one - car will be tested for the model year of the engine. Whereas if you put an older car's engine (say pre-smog) into a car that came with emissions equipment - your car will continue to be tested for it's model year.

So to answer your question: Technically your car would be required to meet the emissions standards for the 1970 model year. But it’s kind of a moot point in your case because both model years are now exempt from emissions testing. New cut off is 1976 model year.

However where folks can still get themselves into trouble is with law enforcement should they decide to do a road side inspection for some reason want and discover that your engine # & VIN # don’t match. If they don’t - you could be required to take the car to a referee for an inspection.

My neighbor who is a CHP officer said that a lot of folks don’t bother to get the paperwork done when they do engine swaps from donor cars and that police officers can & do write folks up for this. The good news is that he did say that most officers wouldn’t know what to look for anyway so the chances of this happening are probably rare.

I’ve never done it myself – but I believe you need to check with the DMV for the specifics. But after an engine swap you are actually required by law to have the vehicle inspected by a referee to make sure that everything is on the up & up for obvious reasons.

Also while this wouldn’t apply in your case – should your car & donor engine both be required to meet emissions the referee with write up the paperwork so the smog check folks won’t out right “fail” your car on the visual inspection and what your emissions standards (equipment & output) you car needs to meet with the replacment donor engine.

Hope this helps?
 
Re: To Bret, Re: CA Emission Laws

[ QUOTE ]
I am darn glad that I don't live in Kalifornia!

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/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/iagree.gif I guess we've got it pretty easy here. Anything older than 25 years is exempt from smog testing, and historic vehicle plates are exempt. So does Jay Leno have to get his Duesenbergs tested too? I'd like to see them try to run a smog test on his steam cars. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/jester.gif
 
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