Boeing accidents

[Gliderman8]

One of my first performance aircraft rides! T-38 Talon.

Mine was in a T-34. It was at Peter O’Knight. I was a freshman and the air force recruiter was trying to entice me. He gave me a parachute and asked if “I knew how to use it”. Then he proceeded to take me stunt flying over Tampa Bay. I was eighteen at the time with no parachute experience :rolleye:

 

[DNK]

All I know is this has put a large dent in our retirement

 

[NutmegCT]

Speaking of retirement, there are over 300 dead passengers who will never have a retirement.

This doesn't look good for Boeing, and definitely wasn't good for the 300+ people who died.

"MCAS was installed in the aircraft and Boeing didn't disclose that to the pilots," said Trevino, while adding that Southwest pilots are experienced with 737s. "It's not flying a whole new aircraft. It's still a 737."

https://edition.cnn.com/2019/03/22/...s-lion-air-ethiopian-airlines-intl/index.html

As we've said before, you can't turn a system off if you don't know it's there.

 

[DNK]

You do notice that the 2 companies who had accidents were foreign ones.
Boeing, nor the FAA, can regulate the time in a simulator for them
IIRC, the last accident the pilot had no time in one

 

[TR3driver]

Actually, Boeing does have at least some control. Owners of $100 million aircraft do tend to pay attention to the manufacturers recommendation, even if they aren't required to by law. But in this case, Boeing themselves apparently said it was not necessary.
"Boeing has said that experienced 737 pilots needed little training for the new Max 8, ..."
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/20/world/africa/ethiopian-airlines-boeing.html

I don't have the link handy, but another source said that the lack of need for pilot re-training was a selling point for the 737 Max. The implication being that was why information on the MCAS was not included in the pilor briefing materials.

The bit I found interesting is that with the crash last October; the same aircraft had the same exact problem the day before! But that time, there was an off-duty pilot riding in the cockpit, who told them "Turn off that switch!". With the MCAS disabled, they completed the flight normally.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...in-cockpit-saved-a-737-max-that-later-crashed

That article also says the aircraft had been repaired 4 times in 4 days, for problems relating to incorrect display of airspeed and altitude. The "failed" angle of attack sensor had apparently just been replaced!

 

[DNK]

Which is to my point about training
All well seasoned pilots shake their head at this and say exactly as Randall points out.
It all boils down to pilot shortages and the lack of hours and practice

 

[Popeye]

Quite interesting article in the Atlantic: https://www.theatlantic.com/notes/2...ecord-about-problems-with-the-737-max/584791/

One of the NASA "pilot report" (ASRS reports, "voluntary, confidential safety information") states: "This was the first flight on a Max for both pilots. Unfamiliarity with flight deck displays led to confusion about display annunciations and switch function. The Flight Manual does not address at least one annunciation, or the controls for the display—or if it does, neither pilot could find the explanation. I have spent literally days looking for an explanation, could not find one, and that is why I wrote this report. It shouldn't be this hard to figure out what I'm looking at.

"On the First Officer side ND, on the ground only, there is a MAINT annunciation. We both saw it, couldn't find any immediate explanation for it on the ground, and didn't address it until airborne. I researched the FM (Flight Manual) for an explanation, accomplishing a word search of the term MAINT. There are only two references I could find: the overhead MAINT light (a no go item) and the CDS MAINT light (a QRH item). There is no explanation of the ND MAINT annunciation.
"We spent the entire hour flight trying to find the meaning of this annunciation and came up empty handed. We determined to check it out once we landed (if the light came on again). Sure enough, after parking, the MAINT annunciation came back on the ND display. We called Maintenance to check out the light. We waited to make an ELB entry, unsure if one was required. Turned out, an ELB entry was not required.

"The mechanic explained the light was part of a menu for maintenance use only on the ground."

First flight in a Max for both pilots... revenue generating passenger flight. Fascinating that they did not have time to debug until airborne - revenue revenue revenue! I would assume - but am not sure - this was a US flight?? Does anyone know if all NASA reports are for US flights?

Not sure if this link will work: https://titan-server.arc.nasa.gov/A...zard_Display.aspx?exportToWord=Y&server=ASRSO. (Or go here, https://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/search/database.html, search for report 1593021.)

I find this stuff fascinating... but need to go to bed now! Good night all, and to Tom's point, thank goodness we are above ground and able to discuss.

 

[SaxMan]

It seems one of the issues is that the FAA allowed Boeing to self-certify the Max 8. Chesley Sullenberger spoke out about how wrong that was.

The certification process does seem to be rather strange. I know the FAA makes warbird operators jump through unbelievable hoops to certify time-proven and relatively simple designs such as a Grumman Avenger for flight, but they allow Boeing who made a major redesign, both in terms of the airframe and the software, sign off on their own work? Seems that the FAA has their priorities a bit wrong.

 

[pdplot]

Wonder what would have happened if the bill to privatize the FAA went through?

 

[JPSmit]

sign off on their own work?

this is endemic though - (no specific government being criticized her because it is everyone both sides of the border.) A (potentially) more benign example - the number of food recalls because of the huge lack of inspectors in almost every field.

 

[NutmegCT]

When agencies have a dual purpose (promotion of an activity as well as regulating the activity), unfortunate compromises take place.

https://boeing.mediaroom.com/news-releases-statements?item=130402

Interesting that the "MCAS software fix" has been in the works at Boeing since the first 737 MAX crash last fall.

 

[TR3driver]

Interesting that the "MCAS software fix" has been in the works at Boeing since the first 737 MAX crash last fall.

A truism for any system : It can always be better than it is. (Or put another way, nothing is perfect.) The Lion Air crash (or perhaps even the adverse events before that) convinced Boeing of the need for improvement in this area.

But it takes a long time to prepare such things for release. Months generally, just to reach consensus on what should be done, (which hopefully includes systems writing a detailed functional description and every stakeholder reviewing that description in detail). A few weeks to actually code, document and unit test the change. Then more months of regression testing, just to make certain the change did not adversely affect any other feature.

A typical case (IMO) of software being asked to work around a hardware problem ...

 

[Basil]

A typical case (IMO) of software being asked to work around a hardware problem ...

Yep!

 

[Deleted member 8987]

A truism for any system : It can always be better than it is. (Or put another way, nothing is perfect.) The Lion Air crash (or perhaps even the adverse events before that) convinced Boeing of the need for improvement in this area.

But it takes a long time to prepare such things for release. Months generally, just to reach consensus on what should be done, (which hopefully includes systems writing a detailed functional description and every stakeholder reviewing that description in detail). A few weeks to actually code, document and unit test the change. Then more months of regression testing, just to make certain the change did not adversely affect any other feature.

A typical case (IMO) of software being asked to work around a hardware problem ...

All those years of MicroSlime updating, service-packing, new OS, and they STILL don't have it right.

I did hear the Fro...French sent the recorders back to Ethiopia. Who has had them for almost a week. And nothing.
This has happened with Ethiopia before.....they are most likely A) trying to figure out how to perform damage control, and B) how to extort Boeing.
As I said, they've done that before.

 

[PAUL161]

FAA on safety, over the years I always stressed aircraft safety. A total surprise to me, but not my wife or son, an FAA official drove 4 hours from Oklahoma City to deliver this to me, something totally unexpected, very humbled but quite proud of. PJ

 

[TR3driver]

Seriously cool, Paul. Congratulations!

 

[Bayless]

Yes, congratulations Paul.

 

[Basil]

Excellent, Paul! Congratulations!

 

[waltesefalcon]

I was about to ask if you had gotten another award Paul but then I saw the date. So now you have actually gone fifty-five years without an incident.

 

[PAUL161]

Thanks guys, but even though I still hold a commercial license in fixed wing, helicopters, and gliders, common sense has taken over due to age and I don't fly much anymore when I do it's with another commercial pilot. I will say I passed my last physical exam along with a required electrocardiogram and stress test, the flight surgeon was amazed, me too!