Anyone "encapsulated" their home?

[vagt6]

Anyone "encapsulated" their home?

It's all the rage among HVAC and insulation contractors nowadays: <span style="font-weight: bold">encapsulation</span>.

They spray foam (5" - 8") between the rafters in the attic and vents, literally cutting the attic off from outside air. Moisture, they say, may escape through the cells in the foam. Temperatures are supposed to stay between 50 (winter) and 80 (summer) degrees. The atmosphere in the entire attic space is "conditioned".

For the crawl space (currently no insulation, open to outside air) will also be encapsulated ( have no basement, it's about a 3-4 foot crawl space, roughly 1800 sq ft). The "floor" (dirt) and walls (block/brick) of the crawl space will be covered by a fairly thick plastic liner, with foam sprayed around the top periphery and end caps. No foam on the floor, to allow air exchange. This literally cuts the crawl space off from outside air. It will also be vented to the HVAC system with a sensor to keep ambient moisture below 50%.

This encapsulation process will allegedly reduce my heating/cooling bills by a minimum of 50%! Plus reduce wear and tear on the HVAC systems, reduce mold/moisture/pollen (better for allergies), etc., etc.

Cost for my 3200 sq foot home: <span style="font-weight: bold">about $13,000</span>. By the way, I'm also now adding a 1200 sq. foot addition (garage with living space above), seems a good time to do this.

I figure the "payback" or ROI should be very roughly about 10-12 years (I intend to stay in this house forever, or until I croak, whichever comes first).

Has anyone else done this? Opinions?

I would not have considered this a few years ago, but now, with rising fuel costs an inescapable reality, it makes sense.

What do ye think, guys? Would you do it?

 

[Mickey Richaud]

Re: Anyone "encapsulated" their home?

I wouldn't.

Reason? If the house is too "sterile", it can't breathe. No fresh air exchange, unless your system is designed to bring in outside air...

...which defeats the purpose, doesn't it? :wink:

I think we're already too "encapsulated".

 

[bugimike]

Re: Anyone "encapsulated" their home?

 

[PAUL161]

Re: Anyone "encapsulated" their home?

A house has to breath! Especially the attic area. That's why you insulate the floor of the attic and not the rafters or under roof, UNLESS, a vapor barrier is created between the roof and the insulation and leaving the ridge pole open, thus creating an air flow for the wood to breath. If it can't, it'll eventually rot. The eaves of the roof are vented for the purpose of fresh air flow in the attic. The walls also need ventilation between the insulation and the outer walls which incorporates a plastic vapor barrier to keep moisture out of the insulating material. If the ceiling is cold, add more insulation. It's easy to blow in.
Even steel buildings that have sprayed on insulation will eventually pick some rust between the outer skin and the foam if there's the slightest scratch in the paint. Of course, steel buildings are not as susceptible to moisture damage as wood.
As we along the coast don't live in a dry (desert like) climate, houses built in a high moisture/high humidity area like ours, need this ventilation.
If you want to know how to insulate or re insulate your home, contact a professional engineer who does this for a living, not an insulation company and installer.
If you decide to use the foam method, make sure of the chemical makeup. <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #FF0000">NO, formaldehyde!</span></span> !JMHO. PJ

 

[TR6oldtimer]

Re: Anyone "encapsulated" their home?

Just don't pass gas in there.

 

[tony barnhill]

Re: Anyone "encapsulated" their home?

Our 3,000 square foot house is timber framed using 4x8 panels consisting of an inner sheetrock glued to 5" thick styrofoam which has OSB glued to its outer side....those panels are nailed to the outside of my house's frame of 6x6 posts (so from the inside you see a 6x6 post, a sheet of 4x8 sheetrock & another 6x6 post).....the house is virtually a styrofoam cooler with a Western Cedar outside!

There is no attic, but vaulted ceilings everywhere instead - the house has huge 6x4 rafters that have 2x6 tongue & grooved wood applied to their top sides so the wood is my ceiling....on top of the wood is the same 5" styrofoam with OSB glued to the top of it & shingles applied.

Even then, we have ridge vents & soffit vents so air can move around a little bit.

Our heat pump works from around November until March...then, from March til June, the house remains comfortable with no extra heat or cooling; in the summer, the heat pump comes on mid-June & runs until August cooling the interior..August - October there's no need to cool or heat the air as it remains comfortable.

But, the house also has 8' covered porches around its perimeter & all our windows are floor to ceiling that can be opened for ventilation but we've never had to as we have double doors that open off our bedroom onto a screened porch, off our dining room onto a screened dining porch, & off the theater onto an open deck....all those porches also help maintain the inside temperature.

Underneath, we have 2x8 floor joists with 6" batted insulation.

Normal heat/AC/electric bills during high use months is around $150 per month...in the months when we're not running the heast pump, it drops considerably!

Oh, the house is 15 years old & also has a computerized thermostat system to control inside temperature at different times during the day based on our usage throughout the year.

 

[longbridgehealey]

Re: Anyone "encapsulated" their home?

Tony, that's a great looking house. You should be really proud of it!

 

[tomshobby]

Re: Anyone "encapsulated" their home?

I worked with a company called Enercept in the 80's. It was a fantastic product and had exceptional qualities. It was just ahead of it's time.

They built a home here on the West Side of town and it needed no heating system for the winter. In fact it needed to have an air-exchange system to bring in fresh air and remove humidity and extra heat. In the summer it was also very easy to cool. I was in a home being built near Green Bay in February and the unoccupied home with no heat system yet installed it was 60 degrees inside. They had (still do have) foam-core roof, wall, and basement panels.
https://www.enercept.com/

 

[tony barnhill]

Re: Anyone "encapsulated" their home?

Tom - Those SIP's that Enercept builds are pretty much like mine except the company that made mine did the inside side in sheetrock so all I had to do was paint it!

 

[vagt6]

Re: Anyone "encapsulated" their home?

Again, this new method is not very well known or understood. In fact, most have never heard of it. I had some of the same objections as youse guys, but upon further inspection, my assumptions proved to be unfounded.

Regarding the "breathing" of the house, the attic foam insulation allows moisture to pass through the foam cells. This is a fact, our archetect agrees, it's printed in the literature, and the foam insulation is guaranteed to do so for about 30 years.

Also, allowing unfiltered air from the outside in your house (e.g., "breathing") may not always be a good thing, especially if someone has allergies. My wife does, and this is another reason why encapsulation makes sense. In theory at least, there will be very little or no unfiltered air allowed in the house by this method. Of course, encapsulaton allows outside air inside the house, otherwise, we'd die of oxygen depravation! It's just highly filtered air.

The new heat pump system has very fancy filtering systems (activated charcoal and conventional filters) which filter out very small particles. Bad air inside the house is not a problem. In fact, with this system the inside air will be far cleaner than outside air.

Our local HVAC folks (I obtained 3 bids) have just begin using the foam insulation process for less than a year or so. They have to purchase $300,000+, specially equipped trucks to blow the foam in, and employees must wear protective gear and need lots of training. This is why it's so expensive right now. I assume the pricing will fall as more and more people use this method.

Aside from the price (which is pretty big), I can't find a compelling reason not to do it.

If I cut my heating/cooling bills by at least 50%, it certainly seems worth the cost.

Interesting . . .

 

[tomshobby]

Re: Anyone "encapsulated" their home?

Tom - Those SIP's that Enercept builds are pretty much like mine except the company that made mine did the inside side in sheetrock so all I had to do was paint it!

Tony, that makes a very comfortable home! I am sure you also have noticed how quiet it is inside!

Mark, maybe consider putting in an air exchange unit.

 

[NutmegCT]

Re: Anyone "encapsulated" their home?

Mark - "This encapsulation process will allegedly reduce my heating/cooling bills by a minimum of 50%!" Did that come from the HVAC contractor?



The word <span style="font-style: italic">allegedly</span> fills the room with doubt (as Dom Deluise used to say).

Let's see, the contractor gets $13,000 up front to do the work. You cross your fingers and hope it pays for itself.

Anyone have any actual knowledge of whether the expense is really justified? I'm interested, but only if a dis-interested party has actually evaluated the process on site - not just in theory.

Edit: in the past, when I've done a Google search on HVAC and encapsulation, the only references I've found came from the companies that do the work.

Thanks.
Tom

 

[tony barnhill]

Re: Anyone "encapsulated" their home?

Tom - Those SIP's that Enercept builds are pretty much like mine except the company that made mine did the inside side in sheetrock so all I had to do was paint it!

Tony, that makes a very comfortable home! I am sure you also have noticed how quiet it is inside!

Mark, maybe consider putting in an air exchange unit.

Quiet is not the word...it can rain, big trucks come by, you name it & we don't hear a thing...I've had to add motion sensor lighting all around just so I know there's something outside.

 

[Brooklands]

Re: Anyone "encapsulated" their home?

Gorgeous house Tony. We are slowly making our 1950's ranch more efficient. When we redid my study last year we removed the 1/4 inch plywood walls and ceiling. The ceiling had some old insulation, but the three exterior walls were just the plywood on the 2x4's behind the brick with no insulation. We redid it with insulation and 3/8 inch sheetrock plus new windows and a fiberglass door. We also put new insulation in the ceiling just because the other stuff looked like the previous owner bred mice in the attic crawl space. It was much better this winter and again this summer, so it is an improvement, and now just five more rooms with uninsulated exterior walls. The addition has thicker walls and are fully insulated. I wish we could redo it like Tony's but you work with what you got sometimes.

 

[tony barnhill]

Re: Anyone "encapsulated" their home?

With the post & beam construction & the SIP's, it took a crew of 4 guys 3 weeks to close the house in from the weather!

 

[vagt6]

Re: Anyone "encapsulated" their home?

Mark - "This encapsulation process will allegedly reduce my heating/cooling bills by a minimum of 50%!" Did that come from the HVAC contractor?



The word <span style="font-style: italic">allegedly</span> fills the room with doubt (as Dom Deluise used to say).

Let's see, the contractor gets $13,000 up front to do the work. You cross your fingers and hope it pays for itself.

Anyone have any actual knowledge of whether the expense is really justified? I'm interested, but only if a dis-interested party has actually evaluated the process on site - not just in theory.

Edit: in the past, when I've done a Google search on HVAC and encapsulation, the only references I've found came from the companies that do the work.

Thanks.

Tom

The 50% figures are printed right in the manufacturer's literature. Savings of 30% - 60%. Of course these are not guaranteed. But, references from current users will verify these figures.

You're right, only the contractors use the term "encapsulation". The manufacturers of the foam don't, probably because the manufacturers don't provide encapsulation services which involve contract labor and use of non-foam materials not provided by the foam manufacturer.

We did our homework. BTW, the foam stuff is warrantied for many years. The foams we're considering are a petroleum-based product, and a soy-based product (haven't decided yet).

The contractors and the manufacturers of the foam insulation are happy to provide references, locally and nationally. I called local references, <span style="text-decoration: underline">all</span> reported major reductions in HVAC costs for existing home projects. Foam also last longer than many other types of insulation, further reducing future costs.

Most importantly, our archetect hearily endorses it. The archetect's endorsement is basically what finally won us over.

The price may be "justified" by calculating return-on-investment. That's what I did. Using a conservative savings figure, my direct payback was about 12 years (with current energy costs - destined to increase). This does not include peripheral savings due to reduced wear and tear on the HVAC systems which operative a reduced levels/rates with such super-efficient insulation.

We'll see . . .

 

[NutmegCT]

Re: Anyone "encapsulated" their home?

Thanks Mark. I'm still interested ... Did you architect give you any references on the actual savings? BTU loss comparison before/after on similar installations, etc.?

Sometimes I think my 1826 house is still standing only because the termites are holding hands! But there's no insulation at all in the first floor walls.

I wanted to do something like you're doing, but found they'd have to remove all the clapboards and facing, then put in new facing and *then* pump the foam in, then replace the clapboards. Inside walls are old lath and plaster. Would cost over $20K. I know it would save me on heating (I heat with oil and wood), but really need to find some actual reports with data on just what the percentage of savings really are.

If you have any references, please post a link or send a PM. Believe me, I'd like to hear about folks who have actually done this.

Edit: one thing that puts me off: when the savings stats compare the new "insulated" costs to the costs with barely-minimum or non-existent insulation.

Thanks.
Tom

 

[Deleted member 3577]

Re: Anyone "encapsulated" their home?

2 things I know for sure about insulating...
(In western Pa.)

Don't use the ground up newspaper in the outside walls of a painted clapboard house...
(The absorbed moisture will push the paint off and the ink will come through)

Don't insulate the outside top 18" of soil around your foundation...
(The walls will push in from frost heave)

So far as foam goes...
Ask me again in 25 years...
People just started using it around here.

 

[vagt6]

Re: Anyone "encapsulated" their home?

Thanks Mark. I'm still interested ... Did you architect give you any references on the actual savings? BTU loss comparison before/after on similar installations, etc.?

Sometimes I think my 1826 house is still standing only because the termites are holding hands! But there's no insulation at all in the first floor walls.

I wanted to do something like you're doing, but found they'd have to remove all the clapboards and facing, then put in new facing and *then* pump the foam in, then replace the clapboards. Inside walls are old lath and plaster. Would cost over $20K. I know it would save me on heating (I heat with oil and wood), but really need to find some actual reports with data on just what the percentage of savings really are.

If you have any references, please post a link or send a PM. Believe me, I'd like to hear about folks who have actually done this.

Edit: one thing that puts me off: when the savings stats compare the new "insulated" costs to the costs with barely-minimum or non-existent insulation.

Thanks.
Tom

Tom, I understand that some contractors can drill holes in your walls to spray the foam into, then, they don't have to remove wall materials. This may be worth a look.

At the very least, encapsulate your attic. That's where all the heating and cooling dollars fly away.

Here's so info I obtained on "Sealection Aggribalance" foam insulation: go to: www.DemilecUSA.com

Getting a contractor's installation quote will get you started, and the contractors will provide a lot of literature and info.

It ain't cheap: I assume that the high costs are related to the novelty of the process, AND, we're pay amortization on the new spray trucks that cost in the neighborhood of $300,000+ for the contractors.

Anyhoo, it's very interesting. Completely conditioned air with highly efficient insulation. Big cost, big savings. Not for every pocketbook, but definitely something to consider.