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Another Camber/Caster Problem

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Everyone:

I really appreciate all of the replies and value your advice and counsel.

The guy who is working on the car now is terrific (If you're in the MD/DC area send me a PM and I'll give you a referral - hope this doesn't violate any forum rules). He has put in a lot of time mulling over how to address my problem.

Anyway, I still want to explore the camber adjusting plates that can be mounted atop the shock towers. If they do it for racing, then I figure they have to hold up pretty well for street use. Does anyone have experience with them? Will they deal with a wheel that already has a lot of negative camber? Rather than use them (which requires cutting off the existing mounting plate), can you cut the outboard end of the existing mount plate to insert a sliding plate with bolts in it and elongate the holes in the existing plate to allow moving the shock?
 
Hello Bob Blue BJ8,

I finish work at 10:30 pm so by the time I get home and on here it can be getting on a bit time wise.

I'd start by wanting to know what camber you have now on each side and go from there.

The advantage of cutting the top off the shock mount is you get rid of the captive nuts that are there and most likely stripped.

The sliding plate should be at least 1/2" thick so your new bolts have some depth to go into. The plates work well because as soon as you have the camber set and completely weld in the plates it's not going to move.

The trick is to remove the original shock mount plate and tack weld the new plate in there and put the shock back on and hook up the rest of the front suspension. Measure the camber and adjust by breaking the tack welds and moving the plate accordingly.

Even with a street Healey you can have up to -2 Degrees of camber without noticeable tire wear issues. I had my BN1 set up with - 2 deg and it was fine, never any problems.

Google or eBay camber gauge to see what's available in your area.

You'll need to do the front wheel alignment afterwards also.

Best regards,

bundyrum.
 
BUNDYRUM:

Thanks for the reply - especially at o'dark thirty in the morning!

Your detailed answer is a terrific help.

A camber/caster guage is being acquired as a first step.

I think the adjustable plates will handle the camber problem.

Can I press my luck for some more of your thoughts?

The caster is probably off on the left side - too much of it, since the tower is tilted back about 1" on that side. Any thoughts on how to address that with the adjustable camber plates? Shimming somehow? Possibly mounting the plate on that side a bit forward?

Thanks again,
Bob Blue BJ8
 
Greg:

Sorry, I neglected to thank you earlier for posting the measurement specs for the front end. They will be a big help, though I'm not sure I'm looking forward to finding how bad things really are!

Bob Blue BJ8
 
Cottontop said:
Patrick67BJ8 said:
I...received my car with the body panels hung and the chassis painted the color that I'm going to paint the car.
Click to expand...

Pat hasn't seen this picture yet, but here are a bunch of us at last Saturday's Tech Session, standing around drinking coffee and eating donuts, watching him add parts to his newly repaired and repainted Jule frame.

YoasTechSession1.JPG


Tim
Click to expand...
It does take 3 people to put the differential in place without scratching the new paint! One really great thing about the North Texas Austin Healey Club is there's lot's of people who know their way around a Healey and are always willing to help!
Patrick
 
Hello Bob Blue BJ8,

You've answered your own question regarding caster and the adjustable plate. You could set up the shock bolt holes on the plate more forward to bring the shock forward. When you do make sure you put some defining mark on the plate that tells you which is up/forward/out (take your pick).

Even with caster you could go more of, another 2 deg will actually help as long as you do the other side also.

With all due respect everyone can speculate as much as they like. Until you get some idea what direction both of the front wheels are pointing you're not getting anywhere.

Putting the car on a frame rack would be nice to get the frame back close to where it should be but the downside is all your door gaps and panel alignment can be off so you then have an extra problem.

Don't forget to take a lot of photo's both before and after. If you can take photo's of the readings on the camber gauge, it's nice to be able to look back on them later.

Hello Patrick67BJ8,

That must be nice working with a new frame. Looking good even now.

Best regards,

bundyrum.
 
Hello Bob Blue BJ8,

This is part 2 of above.

There is a number of good Healey related websites to be looked at regarding this issue.

One I can recommend is stevesaustinhealey.com . When you get onto the home page click on "projects" then "suspension and chassis upgrades" and scroll down the page. There is a lot of good info here together with pictures.

You will see that the way to replace the shock mount captive nuts is to remove not the plate where the shock mounts to but either the inner or outer vertical face of the mount. Then the new adjustable plate is pushed in, positioned then welded. Yes I know it's not quite that easy.

Best regards,

bundyrum.
 
I'd start by putting the car on axle stands on a level floor and measure the chassis as outlined in the shop manual: I believe its section R. It's no use working on the castor and camber angles when the frame is not straight. You can measure it in your garage.
 
Hi, Bundyrum!

Haven't had a chance to check the forum until now. Work keeps getting in the way and, after getting home, I spent a very enjoyable hour on the phone with Tom Monaco of Tom's Import Toy Sales in Portland, OR. Forum Member Dougie in Portland recommended some camber adjustment plates Tom sells instead of the expensive, labor-intensive weld-on ones (See thread Adjustable Camber Plates) You can see the plates at Front Shock Plates .

Tom is a great guy who has been working with Healeys for 40 years. He has plates made of aircraft grade aluminum made to fit inside the existing shock mounting plate with aircraft grade threaded inserts in the holes for the shock bolts. Dougie uses them on his racing Healey. I think they will be a safe, temporary solution for the camber problem. Tom also says they can adjust caster with some further finagling.

The next step is to follow all of the excellent recommendations in this thread to measure the extent of the problem and see if the plates will fix it. I'll have to live with the bent frame for a while until I can afford all that's entailed in getting a Kilmartin frame under the car. In the meantime, I'll update this thread with how things are going. And they better go fast ... they're predicting 70 degrees here tomorrow!

Best to ya
Bob Blue BJ8
 
Say Bob, You might want to take a drive to Bloomsburg, Pa. or the actually address might be Danville, Pa. The proprietor of the 'Sports Car Haven' is Laurn Fink and he has replaced big Healey front and complete frame rails many times. He is very reasonable and likes building 'DARN GOOD DRIVERS' as well as concourse quality restorations.
Good Luck,
Dave C.
(ps. i'm pretty sure that he has a web site, but I haven't looked at it in along time).
 
vette said:
Say Bob, You might want to take a drive to Bloomsburg, Pa. or the actually address might be Danville, Pa. The proprietor of the 'Sports Car Haven' is Laurn Fink and he has replaced big Healey front and complete frame rails many times. He is very reasonable and likes building 'DARN GOOD DRIVERS' as well as concourse quality restorations.
Good Luck,
Dave C.
(ps. i'm pretty sure that he has a web site, but I haven't looked at it in along time).
Click to expand...

Thanks, Vette. Haven't checked this thread for a couple of weeks. Got the adjustable camber plates about a week ago and they're being installed now. They cost $99.50 for the pair. If they fix the problem, I've saved a bunch. If they don't, I won't have lost much. But then I'll be looking for a frame repair and will keep Laurn in mind.
 
hello Bob Blue BJ8,

Nice of you to keep us up to date with your project. It will also be interesting to hear if you are able to correct the issue you have now and by how much. And to hear how the car drives compared to before.

Best regards,

bundyrum.
 
BUNDYRUM said:
hello Bob Blue BJ8,

Nice of you to keep us up to date with your project. It will also be interesting to hear if you are able to correct the issue you have now and by how much. And to hear how the car drives compared to before.

Best regards,

bundyrum.
Click to expand...

Thanks, Bundyrum.

The project goes on. The plates are in, but adjusting them may be a problem. They aren't the more expensive variety that appear to give you a screw adjustment mechanism. Seems you have to check camber, then lift the car and loosen the shock bolts, move the shock to where you think it should be, tighten the bolts, drop the car and repeat until it's right or you're exhausted.

In the meantime, I'm looking for a camber/caster gauge that works on wire wheels with knock offs. The fellow working on the car bought one only to find its adapter doesn't have enough depth to clear the knock off. I don't know if extender pins are available for the model he bought. Does anyone know of a gauge that works on our wire wheels out of the box? (I've read other posts about making your own - might do that as a last resort)

Bob Blue BJ8
 
Hello Bob Blue BJ8,

Remember it's all in the process not the result.

But seriously though yes it's tedious but you have to do it this way. There is one other item you don't mention and that is whenever you lower the car back to the ground onto it's wheels you should roll it back and then forward to let the suspension settle itself.

As far as the camber gauge it's alright to make up extender pins as long as they are the same length.

Maybe some of the racers out there can shed a little light on what they do as far as measuring camber on a wire wheeled car.

You'd be lucky to find an actual gauge to suit a wire wheel I'd say. Making one is a possibility for sure and it could still be used on a "regular" wheeled car.

Best regards,

bundyrum.
 
BUNDYRUM said:
Hello Bob Blue BJ8,

Remember it's all in the process not the result.

But seriously though yes it's tedious but you have to do it this way. There is one other item you don't mention and that is whenever you lower the car back to the ground onto it's wheels you should roll it back and then forward to let the suspension settle itself.

As far as the camber gauge it's alright to make up extender pins as long as they are the same length.

Maybe some of the racers out there can shed a little light on what they do as far as measuring camber on a wire wheeled car.

You'd be lucky to find an actual gauge to suit a wire wheel I'd say. Making one is a possibility for sure and it could still be used on a "regular" wheeled car.

Best regards,

bundyrum.
Click to expand...

Hi, Bundyrum:

<span style="color: #FF0000">"Remember it's all in the process not the result."</span> ... Don't think so. I'm more of the Machiavelli type. You know, the ends justify the means. Problem is we won't know the ends here until we get through the means. Maybe need to study some more philosophy ....

I did finally decide to put together a DIY camber gauge. Will get the parts this weekend. In the meantime, the tranny and OD are getting new seals and gaskets; the seats are getting new leather; the front end is getting new bushings and brake pads; the drive train is getting a new clutch,throw-out bearing and fly-wheel ring gear; and a few other small things. I think I'll have time to put the gauge together.

Hope you're getting to drive yours!

Bob Blue BJ8
 
Well, this winter's round of repairs is almost done and I get to pick up the car in a day or two. Just in time for a weekend of great driving weather!

The camber plates worked. Although I haven't bought or built a camber/caster gauge, a carpenter's level shows the camber is negative on both sides with the tops of the tires about 1/2" inboard. Caster appears good - the king pins line up with the shock arms with no problem. Toe-in is being set now. I can't wait to drive it to see how it feels!
 
Bob Blue BJ8:

One disadvantage to cutting off the original shock mount, at least on the RH side is that the original chassis number should be stamped there. If so, you should either re-stamp the new structure with the same number, or at least retain the removed hardware that has the number. Some future owner of the car might be glad that you did.
 
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