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Good Morning Basil and Others,
Thanks for the tip and clarification. I tried to “quote” using the RH bottom link, but I got an error response, twice, so I just copied and paste the initial quotes. This helps.
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American Eagle commuter & Blackhawk collision
- Thread starter Basil
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Thanks for the tip and clarification. I tried to “quote” using the RH bottom link, but I got an error response, twice, so I just copied and paste the initial quotes. This helps.
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Doesn't FlightRadar24 (or some other app) show altitude?
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DocDup1
Jedi Hopeful
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Just think about how many things had to happen at just the right time for this crash to happen. If either aircraft had changed their airspeed by just five to ten knots during the time that they were approaching the crash point, they would not hit. If either aircraft had made one of their many turns slightly wider or slightly tighter, they would not hit. If the departing RJ had not been just a little delayed which led to the runway change, they would not hit. If either aircraft had been just fifty feet higher or lower, they would not hit. If the tower controller had used the more formal traffic warning that included the clock position of the traffic, the helicopter might have been alerted to the correct traffic conflict. I have been involved in a couple of crash investigations and I have learned that accidents are rarely the result of one single cause. Almost all accidents are the result of a chain of events, all of which have to happen at the exact time or the accident does not happen. The NTSB is very good at solving these things. They carefully consider every factor and they avoid jumping to what seems like the obvious answer. For all we know at this point, the helicopter crew or the RJ crew could have suffered a sudden problem. That is why the NTSB takes so long to issue their report. They want to be sure.
OP
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Yes it does, but not all military planes or copters will show up on FR24. In this case PAT 24 doesn’t show up.
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OP
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There are a couple of YouTube channels I follow that do mini documentaries on NTSB (and other countries) crash investigations. It's really fascinating how they piece things together. Speaking of Wednesday's crash, it seems there was a near miss involving a TCAS alert between a regional jet and a helicopter at DCA just the day before the crash.
Day Before DC Crash, There Was a Near Miss at Reagan National Airport with Eerily Similar Details
Reports confirm "another jet trying to land there had to make a second approach after a helicopter appeared near its flight path."
www.westernjournal.com
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Thanks. FlightRadar24 didn't show altitude, but ADSB Exchange apparently did. Blackhawk is shown at 300 ft even before the impact point.
fallows.substack.com
TM
It Had Been 16 Years Since a Fatal US Airlines Crash.
But there appears to have been another one this evening.
fallows.substack.com
"An ADSB-Exchange screen shot of flight paths that tragically intersected this evening, over the Potomac River in Washington DC. From the south, a regional jet flown by American Airlines approached Runway 33 at National Airport, DCA. From the north, an Army Blackhawk helicopter crossed its path."
TM
OP
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Max altitude for the Cooper on that flight path was, I've heard, is 200ft.
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Thanks. Can you give a source for that 200 ft limit?
If so, then we've probably found the cause of the tragedy.
OP
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New video from different angles (warning, graphic)
Now there are reports that 1) Helicopter "may" have been flying out side of it's approved flight path, 2) flying at higher than approved altitude, 3) Due to staffing problems, one controller was actually working two tower positions, one directing local air traffic and another directing helicopter traffic, 4) There was a regional aircraft that had to abort landing the day before due to a helicopter in its way. The rescue efforts continue in freezing water with zero visibility. (I can't imagine how difficult those divers' job is).
Now there are reports that 1) Helicopter "may" have been flying out side of it's approved flight path, 2) flying at higher than approved altitude, 3) Due to staffing problems, one controller was actually working two tower positions, one directing local air traffic and another directing helicopter traffic, 4) There was a regional aircraft that had to abort landing the day before due to a helicopter in its way. The rescue efforts continue in freezing water with zero visibility. (I can't imagine how difficult those divers' job is).
OP
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The CNN report posted above talks about the altitude deviation. I've heard it referenced in several other reports, but as we know NTSB will investigate so these reports are not "official."
mikephillips
Yoda
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I've heard the altitude issue mentioned on several reports too, and the accident did take place around the 350ft height it seems so circumstantial evidence that they may have been too high at least.
OP
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I suspect there will be a few reasons that contributed.
charlie74
Jedi Warrior
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The 200’ limit is displayed on the chart. The dark blue lines are the helicopter routes and the 200 with the bar over it means that is the ceiling for that route…
OP
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That certainly would have been a contributing factor. My opinion, and that of my son who has flown that same approach many times believes that there’s a good chance the helicopter pilot mistook the aircraft behind the CRJ for the CRJ. The CRJ was low enough that its lights would have been mixed in with all of the city lights. However, the American Airlines plane that was behind him on final would have been higher altitude and more easy to see.
And yes, I know this is just speculation, but I think this is going to prove to be at least part of the problem
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Man there are so many parts of the problem. Not just the two a/c and crews involved in the tragedy, but the crowded national airspace, airport overscheduling, and packing additional a/c into increasingly tighter timeframes and routes.
This reminds me of the highway improvement axiom: when highways get congested with traffic, add more highways. Add more highways, and you get even more traffic and congestion.
Reducing the number of flights using congested airports would be a relatively quick and safe temporary improvement.
ok- back to my cave.
TM
This reminds me of the highway improvement axiom: when highways get congested with traffic, add more highways. Add more highways, and you get even more traffic and congestion.
Reducing the number of flights using congested airports would be a relatively quick and safe temporary improvement.
ok- back to my cave.
TM
OP
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And understaffing. One controller was working two positions.
OP
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Army has identified the third crew member of the Blackhawk as Rebecca Lobach
www.dailymail.co.uk
Captain Rebecca Lobach identified as third Black Hawk pilot who died
The U.S. Army has identified the second pilot of the H-60 Black Hawk Helicopter that collided with an American Airline CRJ-700 passenger jet on Wednesday as it was on approach to land in D.C.