American Eagle commuter & Blackhawk collision

[Basil]

Im sure most have heard by now that an American Eagle CJR700 from Witchita, KS to Reagan, collided with a Blackhawk helicopter while one final to runway 33. The CJR is the same type of plane my son flew when he was with Skywest. Just two days ago he made that same approach at Reagan (Southwest 737). This is a screen shot from Flight Radar 24 playback showing the final moment that the jet shows forward movement so I'm guessing this is when it collided with the Blackhawk at 8:48PM local time. The Blackhawk doesn't show up on FR24 likely because it's military (sometimes they show up and sometimes not)

As I tye this they are reporting four survivors pulled from Potomic so far. Pray there are more.

 

[GregW]

That gave me flashbacks. I grew up in the DC area and watched as rescue crews pulled Air Florida passengers out of the Potomac. A lot of heroism that day that I'm sure we'll see again as this tragedy unfolds.

 

[Gliderman8]

As we know, that’s a TCA. Air traffic controllers as well as the pilots should have known they were both in the airspace.

 

[Gliderman8]

That gave me flashbacks. I grew up in the DC area and watched as rescue crews pulled Air Florida passengers out of the Potomac. A lot of heroism that day that I'm sure we'll see again as this tragedy unfolds.

I remember that tragedy like it was yesterday.

 

[NutmegCT]

There are so many factors involved in even the most rudimentary rules and actions for takeoff, cruise, and landing. Conjecture is all we have at present.

My first questions would center on control and traffic clearances communicated to each a/c just prior to this disaster. If both a/c were on "standard" paths, seems possible that clearances may not have reflected traffic conditions. If one a/c was a "training flight", we still have no idea what the training was for - crew, guidance, command, mission, etc.

A tragedy none the less, and one many of us will be following as the hours, days, and weeks pass.
TM

 

[mikephillips]

Speculation right now seems to be that while the Blackhawk told the tower they could see the commuter jet, perhaps they fixed on something else. What else, unknown. Terrible thing to have happen, 67 lost they're reporting.

 

[Basil]

There are so many factors involved in even the most rudimentary rules and actions for takeoff, cruise, and landing. Conjecture is all we have at present.

My first questions would center on control and traffic clearances communicated to each a/c just prior to this disaster. If both a/c were on "standard" paths, seems possible that clearances may not have reflected traffic conditions. If one a/c was a "training flight", we still have no idea what the training was for - crew, guidance, command, mission, etc.

A tragedy none the less, and one many of us will be following as the hours, days, and weeks pass.
TM

I've downloaded the ATC audio and agree there are many factors at play. NTSB will of course do a thorough investigation to determine all of the factors and how each factor contributed to the accident. This fellow is a pilot with an aviation related channel that I follow. He usually provides some good, thoughtful information that you might not get from the legacy media.

 

[DocDup1]

For those who have not piloted an aircraft in that sort of environment, it is not as easy as the TV idiots make it out to be. You are depending on your own see and avoid capability in a very complicated area. From what has been reported, both aircraft were advised of the traffic and both acknowledged those calls. Trying to find another aircraft at night over a city with thousands of lights is tough. When you add in the factor of a third aircraft that was in the same area on a nearby runway, it is easy to see how one could make an honest mistake and think that you a are looking at your traffic when you are actually seeing the third aircraft. The fact that the helicopter was on a "training" flight is not very relevant. It does not imply that the crew was inexperienced or somehow not qualified. I would suspect that 90% of the flights in peace time are listed as training. I have flown both fixed wing and helicopters in the same sort of environment and I can say that it is generally safe, but challenging. That same situation has happened thousands of times at that same airport without a problem. I suspect that we will eventually learn that this accident, like most others, is the result of a series of events that just happened to occur is a unique sequence. The TV news folks usually know nothing about what they are reporting and they are just trying to fill their time slot. Let's wait until the NTSB has a chance to review the real facts.

 

[Basil]

The TV news folks usually know nothing about what they are reporting

That's true for most topics. They are high-paid teleprompter readers (mostly). But, as with any disaster, the news does have a role to play, but just take what they say with a grain of salt and understand that NTSB still have an investigation to complete. As I mentioned in my OP, my son just made that approach a few days ago (Southwest 737). DCA is not his favorite airport.

 

[Basil]

I've heard from multiple sources that there were at least 14 members of the US figure skating team onboard. There was one young man who was on the team who was denied boarding because apparently he was traveling with a dog that was too large for the available dog cages.

 

[NutmegCT]

from BBC -

BBC Verify analyses moments before Washington DC plane crash

BBC Verify's Nick Eardley has taken a closer look at what we know so far about the collision.

www.bbc.com

 

[Basil]

from BBC -

BBC Verify analyses moments before Washington DC plane crash

BBC Verify's Nick Eardley has taken a closer look at what we know so far about the collision.

www.bbc.com

One thing the BBC didn't mention, which may (or may not) be pertinent or contributing, is the fact that the CJR was originally on final for runway #1 (had not yet been cleared to land). Then, when he (CJR) saids he has runway 1 visual, the tower asks him if he can take runway 33. I counted the seconds between the tower asking and when the CJR replied and it was around 23-24 seconds before the CJR confirmed they could take runway 33. The CJR continues straight for a while, then begins a turn to the right just before the 495 for what would be a short final on 33. If anyone is interested, I've attached an audio recording of the DCA tower (MP3 file). Skip ahead to about 12:50 (which would be 8:42:50 EST) and at about 12:55 you'll hear the CJR pilot start the conversation with tower.

 

[charlie74]

They probably had some math to do. I have been wondering why ATC requested them to switch runways after they had been cleared for the ILS on the original planned runway (01?). Perhaps to facilitate expedient departures for outbound flights…? I’m a VFR guy and do my best to avoid congested airspace like this so I’m prepared to be informed…

What an awful tragedy indeed…

 

[ckeithjordan]

We used to live in the DC area (northern Virginia) and my wife worked at DCA while we were there. I had not heard that AA5342 had initially been cleared for runway 1, which is the main runway. That is is normal, though, to line up for 1, then, being a smaller CRJ, get cleared for 33, which is a shorter runway. AA5342 would then make a right, then left, shallow turn to line up for 33, which is where it collided with the Army Blackhawk over the Potomac. The helicopter corridor is at 200 feet elevation and they were on VFR, they also acknowledged the tower's request that they clear behind the CRJ, which was at 400 feet elevation on its approach. So, the question is, why did they (apparently, by the videos) continue straight and level into the CRJ?

 

[ckeithjordan]

I forgot to mentioned that we lived in the DC area in the 1980s, so we were there for the Air Florida crash in 1982. That was a mess!

 

[Basil]

We used to live in the DC area (northern Virginia) and my wife worked at DCA while we were there. I had not heard that AA5342 had initially been cleared for runway 1, which is the main runway. That is is normal, though, to line up for 1, then, being a smaller CRJ, get cleared for 33, which is a shorter runway. AA5342 would then make a right, then left, shallow turn to line up for 33, which is where it collided with the Army Blackhawk over the Potomac. The helicopter corridor is at 200 feet elevation and they were on VFR, they also acknowledged the tower's request that they clear behind the CRJ, which was at 400 feet elevation on its approach. So, the question is, why did they (apparently, by the videos) continue straight and level into the CRJ?

My son did that same approach just a week ago (737). One thing I noticed on Flight Radar and yes I know this is speculation and means nothing, but when PAT25 (copter) said he had the aircraft in sight, I have to wonder if he had the wrong plane in sight. If you look at attached map, I put an arrow showing approximate directon of PAT25. The plane the arrow points at is the crash plane. If you extend the LOS (dotted line) in the same direction, you will see American flight 3130, on final for runway 1, in the line of sight of the copter about the time the CJR would have turned left onto a shot final for 33. The crash plane would have been lower and possibly lost in the background of city lights, whereas AA3130 would have been much higher and not as eaily mistaken for city lights.
So I have to wonder whether, when the PAT25 driver said he had traffic in sight, he might have been looking at AA3130?

 

[NutmegCT]

The "he saw the wrong airplane" idea is popping up on many pages now.

And in such busy airspace, seems visual is often unreliable.

On a military and commercial a/c, isn't there an instrument (radar?) that shows traffic in the flight path, and gives an audible warning of possible collision?

 

[ckeithjordan]

Tom in Connecticut asked, "On a military and commercial a/c, isn't there an instrument (radar?) that shows traffic in the flight path, and gives an audible warning of possible collision?"

Commercial aircraft have TCAS (Traffic Collision Avoidance System) but it turns off just before landing, because you'd get so many warnings with close proximity of other aircraft. I don't think military aircraft have it.

I think Basil is right, that PAT25 acknowledged the wrong aircraft. Plus, were they wearing night vision goggles? I would think they would not, because of too much artificial light in the area.

 

[Basil]

Tom in Connecticut asked, "On a military and commercial a/c, isn't there an instrument (radar?) that shows traffic in the flight path, and gives an audible warning of possible collision?"

Hey Keith, there's a better way to quote some other member's post:

 

[Basil]

It's also being widely reported that the Blackhawk was at 100-150ft above the maximum allowed altitude for helicopter route he was on. Max Altitude was 200Ft.