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Advice on BJ8 purchase

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Patrick,

Yes both of the restorers checked the shock tower for the VIN, but one was looking at the left side (was probably my fault since I was not clear).

The other guy phoned me while doing the inspection and I coached him on where to look based on the pictures posted here (remember these are not Healey guys, but they are experienced muscle car restorers). I described the top of the right front shock tower and what looked to me to be a horizontal weld line about a half inch from the top. Told him the numbers should be above that weld line. He seemed to understand and see the weld line.

He said the towers seemed to be powder-coated or some other very tough coating. He scraped but could not find any numbers. He said he saw no evidence of grinding, but yet couldn't find anything.

Hopefully I was clear and he was looking in the right place. If so, it is possible they were too light to see without more aggressive sanding. Nevertheless, the VIN remains a concern.

Fred
 
I described the top of the right front shock tower and what looked to me to be a horizontal weld line about a half inch from the top.

Told him the numbers should be above that weld line. He seemed to understand and see the weld line.

NO above that line is the shock mounting plate.

The numbers should have been below that line on the main tower structure.--Fwiw--Keoke
 
Hmm
Look at the post on page 3 of this thread by NIB of Demark. Shows the numbers above the line. This is what I used as a reference.
 
TulsaFred said:
Patrick,

Yes both of the restorers checked the shock tower for the VIN, but one was looking at the left side (was probably my fault since I was not clear).

The other guy phoned me while doing the inspection and I coached him on where to look based on the pictures posted here (remember these are not Healey guys, but they are experienced muscle car restorers). I described the top of the right front shock tower and what looked to me to be a horizontal weld line about a half inch from the top. Told him the numbers should be above that weld line. He seemed to understand and see the weld line.

He said the towers seemed to be powder-coated or some other very tough coating. He scraped but could not find any numbers. He said he saw no evidence of grinding, but yet couldn't find anything.

Hopefully I was clear and he was looking in the right place. If so, it is possible they were too light to see without more aggressive sanding. Nevertheless, the VIN remains a concern.

Fred
Click to expand...
There was so much paint on mine I had to use a stripping pad on my drill to get to my number and when I did it not stamped very clearly. An 8 could have been mistaken as a backwards 3.
 
Fred,

You must be totally confused by now. If it were me, this is what I'd do:

C19A_Lw" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>

Here's why:

1. Paint is a 10 footer with visible pinholes and sand marks

2. Low engine compression

3. Questions whether it's really a Golden Beige car

4. The mismatch of the swage line on the driver's side that suggests to me substandard body repair

But most importantly for me is the VIN tag:

Here's the one on "your" car:

301hwmt.jpg


Here's one from an unmolested BJ8

ra82tj.jpg


Look at the difference. Steve Byers said "yours" looks like it was stamped by King Kong. I'd add Kong must've been working with a worn-out set of number dies from Harbor Freight! "Yours" is buggered, isn't anywhere near being a factory stamping and gives me absolutely no confidence that this car is what it represents it to be. Someone made up this plate by hand, maybe for a legit reason, maybe not. Who knows?

What I do know is you're going to have to title this car in OK and they require a VIN inspection to title an out-of-state car. No way I'd want to risk $42k and have the inspector start rolling on the ground saying, "Dude, WTF?"

We've all been focusing on whether the Chassis ID plate means this is really a Golden Beige car, which can perhaps be explained away. Maybe you could buy this car and title it with no problem, but maybe there WOULD be a problem. I've heard a lot of sad stories with vintage cars where guys couldn't get them titled because of paperwork problems. Even if you take the risk, you may limit your resale value because other buyers might not want to take a chance.

One of the big mistakes we make is to think there won't be a chance to buy another car like it. There are plenty of BJ8s out there and more everyday as us old farts get our keys taken away from us. I'd wait for one that would give a higher comfort level than this one.
 
I agree, Run!! Too much$ & way too low compression. That unless you want to bring her home & take her apart!Lots of red flags IMO. cheers Genos2
 
Well, I'm leaning toward saying no thanks.
However, there has been no response with leads or links or ads for better BJ8s of any color for $40K.

Steve Byers looked at all this and was the first to draw my attention to the buggered VIN plate. But he also said he doesn't think any fraud is at play because the body plate and engine plate match with a VIN sequence number of 42783. He believes the VIN plate was restamped for non-nefarious reasons (lost, damaged, etc.).

I also wonder about the compression test. Both restorers said the engine started instantly, sounded great, ran great/strong, and didn't smoke. Also all the cylinders are within 2 or 3% of one another. This doesn't compute with a motor that ostensibly has such wear that the compression is low by over 40% on every cylinder. Wouldn't such an engine smoke, be hard to start, look worn and leaky, misfire, stumble, blow blue smoke on acceleration etc.?

What do you guys think about this car:
https://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1966-AUST...2#ht_560wt_1167

Fred
 
First impressions:

- looks like undercoating--wonder what's underneath (apparently, some rust repair already)?
- don't know that I've ever seen a Big Healey without a heater--note defroster vents are still there and choke knob seems to have been moved from above speedo to where heater controls should be. Looks like a 'do it yourself' job (note plugs in scuttle/firewall)
- AFAIK, all BJ8s came with brake servo--vacuum line is missing--why was servo (apparently) removed? Has M/C been changed to allow for lost assist?
- looks like dogleg repairs again (look at swage line on left-side photo and slight 'spur' behind door)
- why no photos of right side?
- if 'This BJ8 came from California to Texas a few years ago' then why does it still have CA plates?

I'd really like to know what happened to the heater and the brake servo. Otherwise, a reasonably straight car.
 
TulsaFred said:
Well, I'm leaning toward saying no thanks.
However, there has been no response with leads or links or ads for better BJ8s of any color for $40K.

Steve Byers looked at all this and was the first to draw my attention to the buggered VIN plate. But he also said he doesn't think any fraud is at play because the body plate and engine plate match with a VIN sequence number of 42783. He believes the VIN plate was restamped for non-nefarious reasons (lost, damaged, etc.).

I also wonder about the compression test. Both restorers said the engine started instantly, sounded great, ran great/strong, and didn't smoke. Also all the cylinders are within 2 or 3% of one another. This doesn't compute with a motor that ostensibly has such wear that the compression is low by over 40% on every cylinder. Wouldn't such an engine smoke, be hard to start, look worn and leaky, misfire, stumble, blow blue smoke on acceleration etc.?

What do you guys think about this car:
https://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1966-AUST...2#ht_560wt_1167

Fred
Click to expand...
the white with red interior is highly desireable. Is white the original color? Heritage certificate could be of help. Heaters can be found and installed.
Patrick
 
On the picture of the vin plate, am I seeing red behind the grommet meaning it is not gold-beige but a red one. I don't like the electrical tape either. What you should do is look in the national Healey magazine ads for some quality and cheaper cars. What I see is a 15K car that needs 25 to 30K of restoration. You could be in that one 70 to 80K and never get anything near that when you sell.
 
I looked for several months before finding mine. Stumbled across it by accident, really. It's tough to be patient, but usually results in something you'll end up happier with.

Check eBay, Hemmings, AutoTraderClassics... several other online sites... and keep an eye out for upcoming auctions in your area. Seems like there's lots of choices out there right now at reasonable sounding prices.

~Bob
 
The questions you ask us are all very valid.....but what is acceptable to one guy isn't to another.

For me;;;;;;;both these cars would drive me crazy and are unacceptable(an anal healey owner???). Black frames and BLACk engine compartments tells me the previous owner "just didnt care " about "sloppy" work. So..if that is sloppy the rest of the car probably is too!!


Don't be in such a hurry..bad decisions are made in haste... Took me 5 years for my series 2 e-type, and 3 years for the series 3. I have owned over 15 big healeys, non were bought on emotion. All were nice solid "NO EXCUSES" cars.

Your time will come. Best of Luck.
Pete
P.S. I would buy from an owner rather than a dealer.....more negotiable, and better price...just my opinion..also when the top goes down...the price goes up...better deals in the winter.....
 
HEALEYJAG said:
For me;;;;;;;both these cars would drive me crazy and are unacceptable(an anal healey owner???). Black frames and BLACk engine compartments tells me the previous owner "just didnt care " about "sloppy" work. So..if that is sloppy the rest of the car probably is too!!
Click to expand...

That may not be true... but you'll have to really dig into the car to know for sure. It depends on where your car is from, but it could also be undercoating - or at least could have started as undercoating (not the engine bay obviously, but if the engine bay is correct while the underside is black). That's the way mine was, on a car that spent its first nearly 40 years in Boston (and never had a full ground-up restoration). After close inspection, the conclusion I came to is that the undercoating was very old... possibly done by the dealer back when the car was new, and then someone had "touched up" the spots of undercoating that started to deteriorate with black paint - probably when the car was sold to the guy I bought it from, some 15+ years ago (because I knew the guy I bought it from hadn't done anything to it).

So I wouldn't let a black frame scare you unless the car is being advertised as "fully restored" or something similar. Then I'd really have to question why the frame ended up black. But for a car that's never been restored, or was restored decades ago, then there could be many reasons why the frame ended up black that aren't necessarily "bad" reasons. And if the car's good in other ways, then the incorrectness can be a good bargaining tool to get a better price. But I guess it depends on whether you're looking for something that's completely done and show quality or something you want to work on and build up yourself.

~Bob
 
Hey Bob,
Is your car for sale?
:shocked:
Fred
 
Fred, sorry, I'm afraid it's not for sale. And besides... with all the time and energy I've put into it, I'd have to sell it for about 3 billion dollars to get it all back, so I think it may be out of your price range :smile:

Like I said earlier, finding mine took a couple months. Here's the process I used to locate it:

1) Search everywhere... all the online places, AutoTraderClassics, Hemmings, craigslist, etc.

2) When you find a good potential candidate, get the basic numbers - ask for chassis number (VIN) and engine number at a minimum. Be prepared to explain where the engine number is located.

3) If you can't get the numbers, or if either number is missing, just move on.

4) With numbers in hand, use the BMIHT's Archive Research Services, supplying the chassis number, and ask them for the engine number and original interior/exterior colors. Now you can verify the car original colors versus what it is now, and whether or not the engine number they gave you matches what's on record.

5) If everything matches and you like what you see, awesome! Then it's probably worth a plane ticket to see in person and some inspection costs. If things don't match, then you'll need to decide if you still think it's worth it, or just move on. The only time I would have considered something still worth it was if it sounded like an exceptional deal.

That's what I did, anyway. Your mileage may vary :smile:

~Bob
 
Hey Fred,
Think this topic might be a record with the number of responses ! If you have not joined them yet, I would highly recommend joining both of the national Austin Healey clubs - Austin Healey Club of America :www.healeyclub.org and Austin Healey Club of USA at : www.healey.org. Both are excellent and the Restoration Series by Roger Moment in the AHCUSA is outstanding. There are usually several BJ8's for sale in each magazine, sometimes in both mags. Be the best small investment you will make in purchasing and enjoying a Healey.
Good luck,
Mike
 
I agree with Robert560 about emotional decisions when buying.

I've spent 5 intensive months of searching, looking at several dozen Healeys on the internet, Hemmings, and many in person during that time, traveling to PA, NY and NJ, then finally ending up buying mine from NH.

Some were rust buckets, some wouldn't start, some were heavily modified (which is okay by all means but I've always behaved like a purest). It gave me a chance to think about what I was doing during those 5 months and to determine if I was just crazy for looking.

I have had my car for ten months now, still can't get it to run right (stalling, as some of you may know), but I have absolutely no regrets. The one I ended up buying is as cherry or as original as I have found and the price was very right for me--the two things I was looking for. The money I saved allows me to now invest in rebuilding mine and learn as I go. Luckily, I am not in a rush to drive mine!

As my opinion and from all that I have read here so far, I sense some stress whether to go forward with this deal (or not). I think if the price was much lower, then you could rationalize by thinking how the existing issues can be rectified by investing as you go.

My gut feeling is you may want to walk away. I also know about how love is blind. I almost purchased one that had major body work (and it showed, of course). I was becoming desperate (I started to look into Corvettes, I was getting frustrated). My patience and perseverance paid off for me.

Mine is not perfect. That's for sure! But I still sleep at night.

Good luck, whatever your decision.
 
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