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Advice on BJ8 purchase

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Hey Fred,
Lot more good info from everyone on your potential purchase. One thing to keep in mind about the frame and under carriage being black, what if this is not a Golden Beige BJ8 and combined with the VIN issues, maybe someone tried to change it to a GB as value is higher ? Check under the dash & very easy to take off a front interior kickplate and check behind there. That is the black vinyl covered piece that attaches in front of the door opening and finishes off the interior sides. Believe it is held on with screws if I recall correctly so simply unscrew it and see what the steel color is behind that panel. Could pry off the door panel as well, just pop it off in a few places along the bottom and you should be able to see that steel color. If someone did a color change might not have shot the steel behind these two pieces as obviously paid no attention to the chassis being painted black. In the trunk, pull up the armacord covering and see what color is underneath there- meaning the portion that has been glued down, not the big loose piece that covers the fuel tank. Good luck and as we all have been saying, take the time to have someone inspect it that knows these cars. Have you tried to reach anyone in the North Texas Austin Healey Club ? Trust me, we have all been where you are right now and it is so easy to fall into "lust" over one these old girls and not see the problems or hidden issues.
Regards,
Mike
 
Mike,
That's the road I was going down, you have explained it in more detail.

Because the entire underside of the car is black except for some parts, maybe the original color was black. Hence my tie into the focus of the vins authenticity and the underside of the car being black.

I would take a closer look at the paint. Is it black paint, or black undercoating over gold paint.

Fred, you have a lot of eyes here looking out for you.

If indeed the car is gold and someone simply painted the bottom black or undercoating, not hiding any problems and your fine with that, then it's all good.

Just take into account, that when you go to sell it, the black underside may hinder some prospective buyers.

Cheers,
Roger
 
Thanks guys, I will check for evidence of original paint, but it seems most likely it is the real deal. Here is the email I got from Steve Byers with the BJ8 registry:

"Yes, I have it in the registry. It was offered on eBay out of Delray Beach, Florida in 2007, and I saw it more recently out of Amarillo. I wrote to the seller in Delray Beach, but he or she did not respond. I have a record of one owner in Quebec, Canada in 2000. He provided me a copy of the Heritage certificate, as well as information about previous owners. The car was bought new in Winnipeg, Manitoba at Motor Sales, Ltd. The first owner sold it in 1980 to the second owner, also in Winnipeg. The third owner was the person in Quebec. He bought it sometime before 12 Aug 2000 (the date of his contact with me). I don’t know when he sold it or what happened between him and the eBay seller in Florida.
It’s attracting a lot of attention. You are the third person in the last three days who has asked if I have any information on it. I viewed the photos at the Autohaus website for the last guy who asked. Here’s what I told him.
The car looks decent, as far as anyone can tell from photographs. The frame seems to have been painted black at some point, so it's hard to assess the condition of it, but I don't see any major dents or kinks or corrosion, except the front crossmember appears to have the usual big dent from someone trying to jack the car there. The photos don’t allow a good evaluation of the panel shut lines, but I don’t see anything too far off. Overall, it looks like a fair to good driver-quality car if the drive train is in good shape.
The car has a BJ7 exhaust system installed (no transverse resonators and exhaust pipes exiting on the left side). Some people prefer this for the exhaust sound, but others think it makes the exhaust too loud.
The interior looks original, except for the door panels which have been replaced. The padding looks a bit thick in them.
The major concern for me would be why the VIN tag was replaced, and why it looks like it was stamped by King Kong. At least, it is the correct shape. If a plate needs to be replaced, there are much better options for putting the numbers on them. The body number plate appears to be original, and it is correct for chassis 42783 (curiously, BMIHT records give the same body number for 42783 AND 42843, but 42783 has the right plate). It would be possible to use a body number to order the BMIHT certificate and find out the original chassis number belonging to that body number, and then create the VIN plate to match if it were missing and the original VIN was unknown. 42783 was one of the original 551 cars painted Metallic Golden Beige, and one of 466 with the black interior (the other 85 had red). The configuration of the engine valve cover looks correct for an engine serial number of 29K/RU/H17422. The description of the car says the engine is “matching numbers”, but I would like to see the engine serial number plate to be sure of that. If the body plate and the engine serial match, then my confidence in the identity of the car would be satisfied. The proof of the pudding would be to find the VIN stamped into the right front shock absorber mounting tower.
Whoever wrote the description of the car at the Autohaus website apparently doesn’t know much about Healeys. They interpret the BMIHT certificate serial number (2000/5264) to mean this car was the 2000th of 5264 made. Actually, it means the certificate was the 5,264th issued by BMIHT in calendar year 2000. 42783 itself is #244 from the end of BJ8 production and can claim to be #512 of only 551 golden beige cars made (but the cars weren’t necessarily built in numerical sequence). I told Autohaus all that when they offered the car on eBay in April and May, but they haven’t bothered to change the text.
That is my evaluation of the car based on the photographs. I have no particular expertise in deciding whether an asking price is “fair” or not, since I do not try to keep up with the market for the cars.

Steve Byers
HBJ8L/36666
BJ8 Registry
Havelock, NC "


I draw attention to the statement:

" If the body plate and the engine serial match, then my confidence in the identity of the car would be satisfied. The proof of the pudding would be to find the VIN stamped into the right front shock absorber mounting tower."

I subsequently asked for a pic of the engine plate, which the seller sent me and I forwarded to Steve.
28jwawm.jpg

Here is his reply:

"Yes, the engine serial number is correct for a chassis number of 42783. It’s labeled wrong, though. The “R” means Laycock de Normanville overdrive, not Riley. The “U” means centershift gearbox (as opposed to column shift), and the “H” means high compression engine.
If you should choose to buy the car and want to replace that VIN plate, you can get one that looks exactly as original from Clarke Spares and Restorations in Pennsylvania. I can give you the information about that if you need it
Cheers!
Steve Byers
HBJ8L/36666
BJ8 Registry
Havelock, NC "

So based on this I believe it to be correct numbers matching and an original metallic golden beige car. I do plan to check the shock tower VIN for the final proof.

As far as the black frame, as long as it's solid it's acceptable to me. I'd prefer it to be correct gold. But I think if everything was exactly right it would not be advertised as a number 2-high 3 car.

Fred
 
Fred,

Healey Marque Magazine has no fewer than 6 1967 BJ-8s advertised for sale by owners who have had them for years. At least two are in your price range.

As for Metallic Golden Beige, it is rare. It was a bold color choice at the time, but it is more of a color that you see on modern cars today than one you associate with a classic car. Fewer people find it attractive from an appearance standpoint. On a number 1 car, it will add to the value. Not so much on a daily driver. Don't be swayed too much by the color, unless you really love it or plan a full restoration or you think someone would like to restore it in the future and pay a premium for it. (I would not.)

As for condition, I would not call it a number 2 car. I would call it a number 3. Maybe a strong number 3, but not a number 2.

The posts above that point out departures from the original are very helpful, but some of the extrapolation about what those departures mean are a bit speculative. Check, but don't let it drive you crazy.

The BJ-8s have been falling in value a bit when compared to some of the other models, especially the BN1 and 2. There are plenty of BJ-8s for sale. Don't feel bad about walking away from this one. Number 3 cars in the $40 to $45K range are pretty common. Some can be found in the $30s. I have seen some real number 2 cars sell for $45 to $50K, so for a bit more, you could get more car.

I'm not saying this is a bad deal, but it is not such a great deal that you should accept any surprise problems or any characteristics that you do not like.
 
TulsaFred said:
Thanks guys, I will check for evidence of original paint, but it seems most likely it is the real deal. Here is the email I got from Steve Byers with the BJ8 registry:

"Yes, I have it in the registry. It was offered on eBay out of Delray Beach, Florida in 2007, and I saw it more recently out of Amarillo. I wrote to the seller in Delray Beach, but he or she did not respond. I have a record of one owner in Quebec, Canada in 2000. He provided me a copy of the Heritage certificate, as well as information about previous owners. The car was bought new in Winnipeg, Manitoba at Motor Sales, Ltd. The first owner sold it in 1980 to the second owner, also in Winnipeg. The third owner was the person in Quebec. He bought it sometime before 12 Aug 2000 (the date of his contact with me). I don’t know when he sold it or what happened between him and the eBay seller in Florida.
It’s attracting a lot of attention. You are the third person in the last three days who has asked if I have any information on it. I viewed the photos at the Autohaus website for the last guy who asked. Here’s what I told him.
The car looks decent, as far as anyone can tell from photographs. The frame seems to have been painted black at some point, so it's hard to assess the condition of it, but I don't see any major dents or kinks or corrosion, except the front crossmember appears to have the usual big dent from someone trying to jack the car there. The photos don’t allow a good evaluation of the panel shut lines, but I don’t see anything too far off. Overall, it looks like a fair to good driver-quality car if the drive train is in good shape.
The car has a BJ7 exhaust system installed (no transverse resonators and exhaust pipes exiting on the left side). Some people prefer this for the exhaust sound, but others think it makes the exhaust too loud.
The interior looks original, except for the door panels which have been replaced. The padding looks a bit thick in them.
The major concern for me would be why the VIN tag was replaced, and why it looks like it was stamped by King Kong. At least, it is the correct shape. If a plate needs to be replaced, there are much better options for putting the numbers on them. The body number plate appears to be original, and it is correct for chassis 42783 (curiously, BMIHT records give the same body number for 42783 AND 42843, but 42783 has the right plate). It would be possible to use a body number to order the BMIHT certificate and find out the original chassis number belonging to that body number, and then create the VIN plate to match if it were missing and the original VIN was unknown. 42783 was one of the original 551 cars painted Metallic Golden Beige, and one of 466 with the black interior (the other 85 had red). The configuration of the engine valve cover looks correct for an engine serial number of 29K/RU/H17422. The description of the car says the engine is “matching numbers”, but I would like to see the engine serial number plate to be sure of that. If the body plate and the engine serial match, then my confidence in the identity of the car would be satisfied. The proof of the pudding would be to find the VIN stamped into the right front shock absorber mounting tower.
Whoever wrote the description of the car at the Autohaus website apparently doesn’t know much about Healeys. They interpret the BMIHT certificate serial number (2000/5264) to mean this car was the 2000th of 5264 made. Actually, it means the certificate was the 5,264th issued by BMIHT in calendar year 2000. 42783 itself is #244 from the end of BJ8 production and can claim to be #512 of only 551 golden beige cars made (but the cars weren’t necessarily built in numerical sequence). I told Autohaus all that when they offered the car on eBay in April and May, but they haven’t bothered to change the text.
That is my evaluation of the car based on the photographs. I have no particular expertise in deciding whether an asking price is “fair” or not, since I do not try to keep up with the market for the cars.

Steve Byers
HBJ8L/36666
BJ8 Registry
Havelock, NC "


I draw attention to the statement:

" If the body plate and the engine serial match, then my confidence in the identity of the car would be satisfied. The proof of the pudding would be to find the VIN stamped into the right front shock absorber mounting tower."

I subsequently asked for a pic of the engine plate, which the seller sent me and I forwarded to Steve.
28jwawm.jpg

Here is his reply:

"Yes, the engine serial number is correct for a chassis number of 42783. It’s labeled wrong, though. The “R” means Laycock de Normanville overdrive, not Riley. The “U” means centershift gearbox (as opposed to column shift), and the “H” means high compression engine.
If you should choose to buy the car and want to replace that VIN plate, you can get one that looks exactly as original from Clarke Spares and Restorations in Pennsylvania. I can give you the information about that if you need it
Cheers!
Steve Byers
HBJ8L/36666
BJ8 Registry
Havelock, NC "

So based on this I believe it to be correct numbers matching and an original metallic golden beige car. I do plan to check the shock tower VIN for the final proof.

As far as the black frame, as long as it's solid it's acceptable to me. I'd prefer it to be correct gold. But I think if everything was exactly right it would not be advertised as a number 2-high 3 car.

Fred
Click to expand...
I purchased a 100 several years ago(1976), and the underside was also painted black. The guy I got it from said that a young mechanic scraped every inch underneath and painted it black. Given the low cost of spray bombs this makes sense as affording a spray rig was probably cost prohibited at the time on a young mechanics wages.
Patrick
 
Well, I had two different restorers look at the car and inspect it independently. They are not Healey guys, but experienced classic car restorers.
Bottom line is that the car runs great, drives "like a dream", no rot/rust/cancer anywhere. Some bondo detected in several areas with a special detector tool, but none thick or concerning in it's degree or extent.
Compression test is 100 psi very equal (99-102, 99 was on the rearmost cylinder). Starts instantly, idles smooth, accelerates without hesitation.
Front suspension all redone, rebushed, tight.

The downside is that the body and paint is definitely not show quality. Both said good driver quality and looks great from 10 feet. Close inspection shows several areas where minor repairs were made (front lower valence, rear lower fender, left door) with visible sanding scratches, a few pinholes, etc. Also mentioned was the hood and trunk/boot panel fit was not very good. One inspector said that the hood sits up almost a half inch above the fender where it meets. Also, as Bob pointed out the body line where door meets dogleg is off a bit. Here are the pics sent, they are not very clear, but maybe you can see what he's talking about.
2e5uy46.jpg

2j4tv5w.jpg

2vuahwg.jpg


So, I'm not sure how good the panels lined up at the factory, is this too picky?

Slightly different take between the two. Both said body and paint weren't show quality, but one guy seemed to really like the car, the other had more issue with the panel fit and imperfect repairs. He said perhaps he looks at it from with the eyes of a restorer who does high end work and may notice things others don't.

Thoughts/opinions?

Fred
 
:savewave:
Thoughts/opinions

Leave it where it is at!!!!------Keoke
 
Keoke, leave what where it is at? The compression, the car?
 
In the words of one of my favorite songs by the "Left Banke"




"Just walk away Rene!"
 
Ultimately, cars like this are an emotional decision. Buying or not buying often isn't a matter of condition, quality or correctness. A lot of concerns have been brought up here, but it's really up to you. I think you definitely know what you're buying now... condition, concerns, etc. So is it still worth it? Or do you shop around?

I can tell you my experience... being a 1st time Healey owner as well: I looked at probably a dozen Healeys, and looked VERY closely at 3 different cars before buying mine. And these were serious looks... spending a day and the cost of plane tickets to fly halfway across the country to check them out. The one that finally sold me was the one where I knew exactly what I was getting. It was far from perfect, but I knew everything about it, and knew what I was paying for, and felt that the price was worth what I was getting. It's really important to me that the numbers all add up and are correct, and that I have at least some clue as to where the car has been and what it's been through. And that's what I got with mine. It also had a good "driver quality" appearance, but needed lots of mechanical work (which helped me negotiate a better price), which is pretty much what I was looking for.

If I were seriously considering buying THIS car, I would use the flaws and issues highlighted as a way to negotiate a better price (and would probably walk away if I couldn't get a better price)... but the one thing that would STOP me from buying this particular car at any price is the concerns/issues related to the numbers. The VIN plate is wrong, and is hand stamped (this car sure wasn't built in Longbridge!), and the engine plate has discrepancies. Those are biggies to me. The conclusion I would draw, taking in the numbers as well as everything else, is that this is a pieced-together car. Someone probably had a junk metallic golden beige car with a good title, and a somewhat decent second car (or multiple parts/cars), and pieced together what you see today. Whether that's the truth or not, I don't know... but that's the conclusion I would come to.

Ultimately it's up to you. But that's how I would look at it if I were buying.

~Bob
 
I bought a BJ8 about a year ago. I had several people looking at different cars costing around 40,000$. The more people I asked to review the cars, the more problems there were with the cars. I was told there were better cars out there for that price, but I or my helpers apparantly werent able to find them in the year I was looking. Im sure they did their best to give me advice, but in the end I had to go for a car with some problems or I wouldn't have had one today.

The car I got isn't perfect cosmetically, probably worse than the one you have been looking at. I choose the car for its documented history with one owner back to 1970 and because the mechanics were good and it didnt have rust. I wanted a car i could afford and drive in right away, not a show car with poor mechanics. I dont think you can get both for 40k.
 
NIB, that is a pretty good analysis of the price range. I do think this car has both mechanical and cosmetic problems.

Tulsa, are you sure about those compression readings?
 
:savewave:

I choose the car for its documented history


History began the day I bought my car.---Keoke-- :driving:
 
TimK said:
Keoke, leave what where it is at? The compression, the car?
Click to expand...


BOTH!!------------Keoke----- :laugh:
 
I'd recheck the compression unless you are at 6000 feet or higher. I'd leave the car as is and enjoy driving it until you really need a body restoration. They can take 2 to 3 years at some of the shops. You will then have to make all the chrome pretty and replace all the rubber and it goes on and on. And $$$$! The question is do you want to drive or have a trailer queen. My paint only cost over 10K with me taking all the chrome and stuff off. Then the top looked shabby so new top. Then coming back from Rendezvous, I took a rock in the bonnet. Only 65.00 to repair but not a perfect job.
If you do go for restoration, get a completion date!! Right Roger? Insurance work comes first. Then cars they sell at actions. You will be low on the list.
 
Hey Fred,
I have to agree with the other guys, think you should pass on this BJ8. Poor panel fit is an indication of ,IMHO, a hurried up body and paint job to get it sold and out the door. It will be almost impossible to get that swage line correct without redoing that entire area. Hood could be an adjustment issue but why would someone do all the other work and not have the hood fit right. As Bob S stated, sounds like you have equal poor compression on the engine. It might be okay mechanically otherwise but looks like you're looking at a engine rebuild and those ain't cheap ! Too many nice ones out there for sale right now with good body work, better paint and better engines. Know it's hard to walk away once you "fall into lust" with a big Healey, but confident you can find another one for the money you mentioned without some of the issues discussed.

Good luck and keep looking as there is nothing like jumping in a Healey and taking off after a rotten day at the office,
Mike
 
Thanks guys,
the only thing I'm concerned about is expecting too much. For $40K will I find a car that has none of the issues seen here (or other problems of similar magnitude).

When I look at Hemmings most of the nice cars have asking prices that are higher, around mid-50K region and higher.
Cars that are sub-40K all seem to be in need of restoration.

In the end, I don't NEED the car, so maybe the smart move is to leave it. On the other hand I don't want the "perfect to be the enemy of the good".

Are there really better cars for $40K?
Where?

Fred
 
To find out what to expect i went to look at different cars at car traders, not to buy but only to look. Perhaps i was a bit naive in the beginning going for a BJ8 for 30K. Those cars were not good to look at, the interier was worn, the engine was not fun to look at, underneath it looked messy. Quickly forgot those and looked for cars in the region 40-45k. They are much better, some have a restored engine, others newer paint. They arent perfect but they look like fine cars to drive, they havent perfect fitting of doors, fenders etc., but no major rust issues visible, and engine runs good.
50k cars didnt seem like they were much better, but from 60K and up started to look really good.

I also at the same time looked at what the cars sold for on completed auctions on ebay, thats a bit faster and easier than going to look at the cars in person.
 
TulsaFred said:
Well, I had two different restorers look at the car and inspect it independently. They are not Healey guys, but experienced classic car restorers.
Bottom line is that the car runs great, drives "like a dream", no rot/rust/cancer anywhere. Some bondo detected in several areas with a special detector tool, but none thick or concerning in it's degree or extent.
Compression test is 100 psi very equal (99-102, 99 was on the rearmost cylinder). Starts instantly, idles smooth, accelerates without hesitation.
Front suspension all redone, rebushed, tight.

The downside is that the body and paint is definitely not show quality. Both said good driver quality and looks great from 10 feet. Close inspection shows several areas where minor repairs were made (front lower valence, rear lower fender, left door) with visible sanding scratches, a few pinholes, etc. Also mentioned was the hood and trunk/boot panel fit was not very good. One inspector said that the hood sits up almost a half inch above the fender where it meets. Also, as Bob pointed out the body line where door meets dogleg is off a bit. Here are the pics sent, they are not very clear, but maybe you can see what he's talking about.
2e5uy46.jpg

2j4tv5w.jpg

2vuahwg.jpg


So, I'm not sure how good the panels lined up at the factory, is this too picky?

Slightly different take between the two. Both said body and paint weren't show quality, but one guy seemed to really like the car, the other had more issue with the panel fit and imperfect repairs. He said perhaps he looks at it from with the eyes of a restorer who does high end work and may notice things others don't.

Thoughts/opinions?

Fred
Click to expand...
Did either of the Restorers check out the vin# vs the shock tower#? If not, you didn't good a inspection IMHO.
Patrick
 
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