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Advice on BJ8 purchase
- Thread starter TulsaFred
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Robert560
Senior Member
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Barefoot said:
Yeah it is!! Didn't notice that before. That's not the tag that would have come on a BJ8. So it sure looks like the tag has been changed with a tag from an older Healey model, and then restamped a bit poorly by hand. Could have just been removed and lost during a repaint, and then someone just used the wrong tag to replace, but still...
I think there's other place you can find the VIN number marked, but I can't remember them... I'm sure someone here knows.
Wish I could check out the car in person for you, but I'm way far from Amarillo, and wouldn't have time to go before you do.
~Bob
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TulsaFred
Jedi Warrior
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The VIN tag is squirelly, but the body plate and engine plate all match appropriately together and with the VIN. May have been a replacement VIN tag, which I understand is not uncommon since they are simply screwed on.
Seller won't go lower than 42K, but I didn't push very hard. If the car checks out, this price is probably fair, though certainly not a steal. 35K would be nice. If there are a number of findings on the inspection that the seller and I didn't already acknowledge (or pictures showing) then maybe I can ask for a discount for them. Seller is in the business though and doesn't give the slightest indication of being willing to go lower.
Bob, I saw your webpage, if I buy the car we'll have to get these two metallic golden beige/black cars together some time. I'd LOVE to see your mods, they look AWESOME. This car (#42783) is #512 of 551 Golden Beige Metallic cars according to the BJ8 registry.
Seller won't go lower than 42K, but I didn't push very hard. If the car checks out, this price is probably fair, though certainly not a steal. 35K would be nice. If there are a number of findings on the inspection that the seller and I didn't already acknowledge (or pictures showing) then maybe I can ask for a discount for them. Seller is in the business though and doesn't give the slightest indication of being willing to go lower.
Bob, I saw your webpage, if I buy the car we'll have to get these two metallic golden beige/black cars together some time. I'd LOVE to see your mods, they look AWESOME. This car (#42783) is #512 of 551 Golden Beige Metallic cars according to the BJ8 registry.
TulsaFred said:
In 2009 i was looking for an Austin Healey. I live in Europe so I had AI inspecting a car for me. It was a blue report. The result was alot of pictures from the outside, none from below, since they couldnt lift the car. I asked them to inspect for rust in certain known areas, but apparntly that message didnt go to the inspector. The inspector didnt know the car model, look at the engine number he found. I decided it wasnt enough for me to decide to go for that car.
You can see a copy of the report below. It included 167 pictues in 480x360, maybe they upgraded that.
https://healey.850r.dk/pictures/ai report.pdf
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There are two different vin tags for the BJ8. I have the older style, rectangular one, but when the vin # is corrected to match the serial number on the RH shock tower # it will have the rounded style.Robert560 said:
Patrick
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[/quote]There are two different vin tags for the BJ8. I have the older style, rectangular one, but when the vin # is corrected to match the serial number on the RH shock tower # it will have the rounded style.
Patrick [/quote]
Is it possible there was a different plate for the 1967 cars after the establishment of the NHTSA? On the other hand, I wonder if someone's been playing games to create a Golden Beige car. Once that Keith Tanner car went for $143k, lots of them seemed to show up. I'd really look that car over for signs of original paint.
Patrick [/quote]
Is it possible there was a different plate for the 1967 cars after the establishment of the NHTSA? On the other hand, I wonder if someone's been playing games to create a Golden Beige car. Once that Keith Tanner car went for $143k, lots of them seemed to show up. I'd really look that car over for signs of original paint.
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TulsaFred
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Thanks for the info guys,
I'll be checking the shock tower VIN (great pics, thanks!). I don't think there is a problem with the numbers based on the body plate and engine plate and VIN plate all matching. Hard to imagine what fraud would have been intended by restamping a VIN plate on this car. I know on some vehicles, like my vintage Corvettes, this is a big issue. But the fraudsters there are trying to make the car look like an original big block, or fuelie, or some other desirable option that is much more valuable. A big Healey is pretty much a big Healey, options aren't big issues and all drivetrains are the same for a particular model year. More likely the VIN plate was lost or damaged somewhere along the way and it was replaced. Other thoughts?
NIB-great to see the AI report. Looks like something I can do myself. I plan to have it inspected by a local auto restorer with lots of experience. Even though he is not a british car or Healey guy, he'll probably be well versed in structural rust, poor previous restoration/repair work, wavy body line/bondo, etc.
One thing I am concerned about is rust, particularly hidden rust. This was a Canadian car for most of its life. I've been told that the big Healeys are pretty easy to inspect and all rust prone areas are open to inspection. Is this true? What are the most rust prone areas?
Fred
I'll be checking the shock tower VIN (great pics, thanks!). I don't think there is a problem with the numbers based on the body plate and engine plate and VIN plate all matching. Hard to imagine what fraud would have been intended by restamping a VIN plate on this car. I know on some vehicles, like my vintage Corvettes, this is a big issue. But the fraudsters there are trying to make the car look like an original big block, or fuelie, or some other desirable option that is much more valuable. A big Healey is pretty much a big Healey, options aren't big issues and all drivetrains are the same for a particular model year. More likely the VIN plate was lost or damaged somewhere along the way and it was replaced. Other thoughts?
NIB-great to see the AI report. Looks like something I can do myself. I plan to have it inspected by a local auto restorer with lots of experience. Even though he is not a british car or Healey guy, he'll probably be well versed in structural rust, poor previous restoration/repair work, wavy body line/bondo, etc.
One thing I am concerned about is rust, particularly hidden rust. This was a Canadian car for most of its life. I've been told that the big Healeys are pretty easy to inspect and all rust prone areas are open to inspection. Is this true? What are the most rust prone areas?
Fred
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TulsaFred
Jedi Warrior
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Rick,
Good thought, but since the price of this car is $42K it doesn't seem like creating a Golden Beige car would be behind the squirelly VIN tag. This price for a nice condition BJ8 is about in line for a "number 2 to very high number 3" (as the seller represents it) condition car of any color. The seller barely mentions the color in the ad, I'm not sure he knows or considers golden beige to be anything special.
If he was asking a big premium for it because of the color, then that would be different, I think.
Fred
Good thought, but since the price of this car is $42K it doesn't seem like creating a Golden Beige car would be behind the squirelly VIN tag. This price for a nice condition BJ8 is about in line for a "number 2 to very high number 3" (as the seller represents it) condition car of any color. The seller barely mentions the color in the ad, I'm not sure he knows or considers golden beige to be anything special.
If he was asking a big premium for it because of the color, then that would be different, I think.
Fred
That VIN plate would really bother me. Unless you can get a new plate and have it stamped right, I would pass. When your in that price range it's a red flag, and don't forget. someday you may wan't to sell it. May be hard to unload especially if you overlook something.
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Most of the problem areas have been mentioned above, but here's some pics that may help:
Yellow - outriggers are one of the first spots to rust, particularly closer to the sills
Red - sills - structural rust here is a deal breaker, will cost plenty to fix
If you can check inside the car, under the carpets on the inside surface of the sills, this will help
Pink - floor pans - these look pretty good in the pics, original stampings visible, check for patches or places obscured by thick undercoating. Check the seam areas where they meet the sills
Blue - footboxes - check where the floors kick up to the firewall, early signs of rust will appear here
Green - crossmembers - tend to get dented when used as jacking point. rust is bad, dents you can live with if not entering concours
White - Main frame rails - check everything as much as you can with a sharp awl, any rust through or thin spots are obviously bad
Pink - lower fenders - look for filler along lower edge and bottom
Orange - outer sills - " " "
Yellow - dog leg - repairs made here are generally with a patch panel. Look for lack of wire at the lower rear edge to see if it's been patched One of the first spots to show rust
Blue - rear fender - also a spot for patch panel. Look for the wire on the front edge to show a repair.
White - fender seam - electrolytic action between the aluminum shrouds and the steel fenders will cause corrosion showing itself by bubbling of the paint next to the stainless trim strips
Red - These have been repainted originals. Check to see if the ridges on the hubs are sharp or dull. If they're sharp, hubs and wheels will need to be replaced . not cheap.
<span style="font-size: 14pt"><span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #FF0000">The short answer - CHECK EVERYTHING!</span></span></span>
Yellow - outriggers are one of the first spots to rust, particularly closer to the sills
Red - sills - structural rust here is a deal breaker, will cost plenty to fix
If you can check inside the car, under the carpets on the inside surface of the sills, this will help
Pink - floor pans - these look pretty good in the pics, original stampings visible, check for patches or places obscured by thick undercoating. Check the seam areas where they meet the sills
Blue - footboxes - check where the floors kick up to the firewall, early signs of rust will appear here
Green - crossmembers - tend to get dented when used as jacking point. rust is bad, dents you can live with if not entering concours
White - Main frame rails - check everything as much as you can with a sharp awl, any rust through or thin spots are obviously bad
Pink - lower fenders - look for filler along lower edge and bottom
Orange - outer sills - " " "
Yellow - dog leg - repairs made here are generally with a patch panel. Look for lack of wire at the lower rear edge to see if it's been patched One of the first spots to show rust
Blue - rear fender - also a spot for patch panel. Look for the wire on the front edge to show a repair.
White - fender seam - electrolytic action between the aluminum shrouds and the steel fenders will cause corrosion showing itself by bubbling of the paint next to the stainless trim strips
Red - These have been repainted originals. Check to see if the ridges on the hubs are sharp or dull. If they're sharp, hubs and wheels will need to be replaced . not cheap.
<span style="font-size: 14pt"><span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="color: #FF0000">The short answer - CHECK EVERYTHING!</span></span></span>
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TulsaFred
Jedi Warrior
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Wow, thanks for the details Rick.
A few questions:
What really is the "dogleg"? I've been told it's behind the rear wheel, your arrow indicates its the area in front of the rear wheel.
I don't understand what you mean by the ridges on the hubs?
As far as junction of Aluminum shroud and steel fender, what stainless trim strip exists there?
thanks
Fred
A few questions:
What really is the "dogleg"? I've been told it's behind the rear wheel, your arrow indicates its the area in front of the rear wheel.
I don't understand what you mean by the ridges on the hubs?
As far as junction of Aluminum shroud and steel fender, what stainless trim strip exists there?
thanks
Fred
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TulsaFred said:
Dogleg - go here: Dogleg paart # bdy006 is the dogleg, the part of the rear fender that is immediately behind the door opening. While you are there, check out the other patch panels available - they sell patch panels because that's where the cars rust.
Wheel hubs: wire wheel guide
The stainless trim is the rounded bead that runs the length of the fender at the top
Don't be too discouraged by some of the comments here. Everyone's trying to help you out with the danger areas so you don't get stuck. But it looks like a decent car in the pics and I've had a huge soft spot for Golden Beige cars since I parked my ratty bugeye in high school next to the brand new one owned by the guy that owned the building where my Dad's office was.
AUSMHLY
Yoda
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A lot of attention is being focused on the vin. I'd also put equal weight on why the bottom of the car is black.
Not only is the frame black, but it appears the entire underside of the car, seat pans, etc are black. If the car was originally gold, why would someone take the time to dismantle the car (not all parts under the car were painted black, the rear shocks and brake lines as an example) and paint the entire underside of the car black. Is that not a red flag?
These cars are valued in relationship to their originality, the quality of any repairs made and how the car runs.
The underside of the car should be the same color as the exterior. It would be a hugh undertaking to repaint the underside of the car gold.
Something you should consider, if you do buy it and the time comes when you want to sell it.
Not only is the frame black, but it appears the entire underside of the car, seat pans, etc are black. If the car was originally gold, why would someone take the time to dismantle the car (not all parts under the car were painted black, the rear shocks and brake lines as an example) and paint the entire underside of the car black. Is that not a red flag?
These cars are valued in relationship to their originality, the quality of any repairs made and how the car runs.
The underside of the car should be the same color as the exterior. It would be a hugh undertaking to repaint the underside of the car gold.
Something you should consider, if you do buy it and the time comes when you want to sell it.
OP
TulsaFred
Jedi Warrior
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AUSMHLY,
I don't know for sure, but if the car was restored by a hobbyist, especially before the detailed information available on the internet, it's entirely possible he blacked out the frame and underside of the car. I've see a number of cars on the internet with black painted frames.
I would have probably done this myself out of ignorance, because most cars have black frames/undercarriages and black is much easier to do since you don't need to have the body color paint and you can use rattle cans, POR-15, Eastwood Chassis black, etc. etc.
So maybe I'm naive, but the black underside/frame, in and of itself, is not a big concern to me. Now if I probe around and find structural rust in the frame, painted over, that's different.
Anyone else think the black undercarriage is a red flag?
Fred
I don't know for sure, but if the car was restored by a hobbyist, especially before the detailed information available on the internet, it's entirely possible he blacked out the frame and underside of the car. I've see a number of cars on the internet with black painted frames.
I would have probably done this myself out of ignorance, because most cars have black frames/undercarriages and black is much easier to do since you don't need to have the body color paint and you can use rattle cans, POR-15, Eastwood Chassis black, etc. etc.
So maybe I'm naive, but the black underside/frame, in and of itself, is not a big concern to me. Now if I probe around and find structural rust in the frame, painted over, that's different.
Anyone else think the black undercarriage is a red flag?
Fred
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TulsaFred said:
More like a yellow one than a red one. I think your approach is correct. That frame looks pretty good in the pics, although you won't know for sure til you see it up close. Real bad frame stuff tends to be obscured by thick undercoating and goopy black paint. That's not what we're seeing here. My impression is this car was given an amateur restoration with the body and paint handed off to a professional.
Keoke
Great Pumpkin
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A lot of attention is being focused on the vin. I'd also put equal weight on why the bottom of the car is black.
I can remember many years back allegedly that for some concourse cars the bottom edge all around the outer body panels the car was to be painted black. Do not recall if this was true or not since I never went that way.--Keoke
I can remember many years back allegedly that for some concourse cars the bottom edge all around the outer body panels the car was to be painted black. Do not recall if this was true or not since I never went that way.--Keoke