TR4/4A 63 TR4 Generator Question

[ghawk16]

So I'm in the process of cleaning everything up while the frame and shell are at the shop. I pulled the generator off the engine and would like to stay original with this piece. Again, my grandpa liked to cut corners on some stuff. The one on the top is the one I pulled off the car. It has a stripped Armature and he added a small piece of metal between the cap and the cooling fan as I believe he pressed the bearing too far in which caused the fan to go past the woodruff key. Well I am replacing the bearings and it looks like I can't buy the coil set as they are no longer available, but the brushes look good on both. If I just replace the bushings and clean up the coils on the inside of the housing and the armature should I be OK? I plan to use the lower housing as I believe that was the original on my car due to the step. The one I pulled off seems to be off a later car. I guess my questions are: 1) Is the stepped housing the correct one for my car? and 2) Is there a measurement on the armature that would tell me if it is too warn? Obviously I'm down to one armature as the top one is stripped and has a nice groove in the shaft from the piece of metal my grandpa wrapped around it.

Thanks,
Gary

 

[TR3driver]

That front bearing is just a light slip fit in the housing, it should be held by a lip and spring on one side, and a retaining plate on the other. There is supposed to be a short sleeve between it and the fan, which spaces the fan away from the housing and also serves as the inside of a dust seal. Felt originally I think, although rebuilds may have a lip type seal instead. Anyway, it's easy to lose the sleeve as it often looks like part of the end plate until it falls out and runs down the nearest black hole. You may be looking at a substitute.

The straight housing looks to be from an earlier TR2-3A, it's the 19 amp model like I have on my TR3. The stepped housing is the 22 amp model which would be correct for your TR4. IIRC the armatures are not interchangeable.

The nut is supposed to clamp the pulley, fan, and spacer to the inner race of the bearing, which in turn comes up against a shoulder on the armature shaft. As long as you can get that stack clamped firmly, it should be OK.

The main question IMO would be whether the armature and field coils are electrically OK. They're not easy to test thoroughly without a growler, and almost no one has a growler any more. But the windings look good (not discolored from overheating) so I think you might be OK. I'd put it back together and see what happens.

Don't forget to clean and adjust the control box. It's kind of important, as otherwise the generator can try to put out too much current and overheat. Even new ones need to be adjusted after installation.

 

[bobhustead]

You can check the reassembled gen before putting it on the car. The test is called runaway generator and is detailed in the Haynes manual. Use a socket in a drill to briefly spin up the gen to check for adequate voltage.
Bob

 

[Geo Hahn]

...he added a small piece of metal between the cap and the cooling fan as I believe he pressed the bearing too far in which caused the fan to go past the woodruff key...[/IMG]

It has been awhile since I had one apart, but I'm thinking that the fan is not captured by the Woodruff key. IOW, the notch in the hole in the fan is just there so it can be slipped off & on w/o removing the key. But I could be all wet.

 

[Andrew Mace]

What are the model numbers, part numbers and date codes on each generator?

 

[TR3driver]

It has been awhile since I had one apart, but I'm thinking that the fan is not captured by the Woodruff key. IOW, the notch in the hole in the fan is just there so it can be slipped off & on w/o removing the key.

I agree, forgot to mention that before.

 

[ghawk16]

Great. Thanks guys. I'm just wondering why my grandpa took the original TR4 one out and put in the earlier TR2-3A. There had to be some reason. I got all the parts to rebuild the TR4 Generator. I will take better pics of the armature shaft and bearings once I get it apart to make sure there are not parts missing. Sometimes it's hard to tell by catalogs or manuals. I will also get some part numbers to compare.

Now if this 105+ weather would go away so I can work in my garage in the evening and not feel like I'm in a baking oven. HAHA

 

[TR3driver]

Back in the day, suppliers were not so careful about which generator was which. I can't count how many times I was told "they're all the same".

FWIW, although I'm not certain how much difference it actually makes; the control box was different for the two different models of generator. Somewhere I've got a note from Lucas warning not to mix control boxes and generators. Your original control box should have part number 37283E engraved on the base.

Also, here's a shot of the numbers that Andy is asking about, which are really the only way to be certain which generators you have. Lucas made a lot of generators using those two castings, and they weren't necessarily all the same (for example there were 6 volt models that use the same housing, etc.) In this shot (from my TR3), 22258E is the part number, C39PV2 the model number, and "10 56" the date code.


Should be cooler in Dublin today, "only" 104 FWIW, I setup a cheap floor fan with a misting nozzle that seems to help a lot. Only works when the humidity is down, of course. But it helps enough that I'm tempted to buy a free-standing swamp cooler.

 

[Andrew Mace]

I looked at some of my Lucas catalogs. Depending on the year, either a 22700 or a 22704 was original fitment, with the other being "alternative" fitment. One is a C40 and the other a C40-1 (not to be confused with the longer C40-L used on Vitesses and early GT6s). I don't remember which part number goes with which model (books are home and I'm at work right now). In your original post photo, I think I'm seeing 22704(?), but I don't see a date code. That might well be the original TR4 generator.

 

[TR3driver]

Ok, I am officially confused! All these years, I thought all C40 and C40-1 had the step in the housing; but that photo is proof that C40 (22704) does not!

I have both 22704 and 22700 (C40-1) listed for 1963. 22700 is also listed as the replacement for 22704.

 

[ghawk16]

I think my head just exploded! HAHAHA Maybe it's the 104 heat getting to me. OK...now you all have me curious. I will have to clean them up a bit so I can get pictures of the numbers. Both are tough to read. But the non-stepped one has 22704-J and 1067???? underneath it? Or is that 6 a C? I'll just have to go home, sweat in the dry box (and yes, I have TWO fans going at the same time) and get some part numbers. I will be honest tho, I hope it is the stepped one since that is the one with the shaft that isn't stripped. And someone above said the armatures aren't interchangeable? Hmmmm

I will also look at the control boxes. There was a beat up one on the car and a brand new one sitting in the box. Any good way to the test if those are bad? I was just going to use the new one since it looked, well, new!

 

[TR3driver]

If the stepped one is a 22700 (C40), then the armatures should be the same. (Both 227631 according to my Lucas catalog).

The misting nozzle was the bit I was suggesting. When the humidity is down, evaporating water has a significant cooling effect (like when you get out of the shower). It's too humid here to get the full 30F they advertise, but it does help quite a bit.

Easiest way to test is again going to be hook it up and see what it does. I built a crude test stand from 1x6 and an old washing machine motor, but it's probably not worth the hassle for you.

 

[TomMull]

We used to test them in a vice by spinning them with compressed air blown at the fan.
FWIW, my two examples, 22700 (straight) and 22704 (stepped) are both clearly marked C40.
I was also unaware of a difference in regulators. I thought, perhaps mistakenly, that any of the spade terminal regulators were interchangeable and same for the screw terminal type.
Tom

 

[ghawk16]

OK Guys. So cleaned them up a little and got some pics of the part numbers and the part numbers off the regulators. I also included a picture of the two different armatures.
Soooo...goes like this:

Generators:
Came off the car (non-step housing and right armature in picture attached): 227004 J 12V 040-6-67
Spare (stepped housing and left armature in picture attached): 22700 N 12V 010-14-69 (9 is hard to distinguish)

Regulators:
Came off the car: RB106/2 12V 7 62-37283E
Spare: RB106/2 12V 10 66-37283F

The two armatures are different at the end plates where the bushing is put in. One is secured with a plate and rivets and the other that goes in the stepped housing looks like it is just pressed in. So I'm not too sure if these are interchangeable. If this is going to be too much of a PITA I'll just go the alternator route. I want to keep as much originality on the car as possible and I'm not going concours, but I'm going Toyota 5spd at some point and I will probably go aluminum radiator since the lower part of my original is bent beyond repair. Unless someone has an original end tank for the bottom!

 

[ghawk16]

So looking at TR3driver's equipment specs post it seems that the regulator I had on it is the correct one. Maybe the "F" one supercedes it. If there is a way to test these I will do that. I'll make sure the original is in working order and then just use the new cover from the "F" one on the "E" one. Now the generator...that's a different situation.

 

[Andrew Mace]

That "7 62" regulator is quite likely original to your TR4; all the other bits are "as original" if you will.