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$4.49/gal for diesel ????

"I've no problem with drilling in 'pristine' areas....they're usually still 'pristine' afterwards. Heck, look at the strip coal mining that's being done in Gillette, Wyoming right now. Once they finish mining an area, you can't tell they were ever mining! The same with oil drilling."

Yes. and how many tons of pollution will burning that coal spue into the atmosphere and our lungs??? We keep missing the point. We need to develop new sources of energy.

". . . . Few of us realize that even today we burn a lump of coal every time we flip on a switch. Coal already supplies more than half the energy needed to power our iPods, laptops, lights: anything we use that consumes electricity. Our desire to find a homegrown alternative to Mideast oil, the rising cost of oil and natural gas, and the fossil fuel-friendly mood in Washington will soon push our coal consumption through the roof. <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">Because we have failed to develop alternative energy sources, coal has effectively become the default fuel for the twenty-first century</span>.</span>

"Big Coal: The Dirty Secret Behind America's Energy Future" Jeff Goodall
 
"I've no problem with drilling in 'pristine' areas....they're usually still 'pristine' afterwards. Heck, look at the strip coal mining that's being done in Gillette, Wyoming right now. Once they finish mining an area, you can't tell they were ever mining! The same with oil drilling.

I paid $10.00 for 2.3 gallons of high test this afternoon.


"Well, growing up in the Pennsylvania strip mine areas,
I have to strongly disagree with that statement. Miles
and miles of barren shale rock, poisoned water, no plant
life to speak of, no animal life except a few buzzards circling dead rats.

The poor old folks sold their "mineral rights" for a few hundred
$$ dollars not knowing the 500 acre,family farm was
about to become a lunar landscape barren of all life.
Small wooden farmhouses left perched in the middle of
a destroyed, strip mined coal field.
 
angelfjd said:
how many tons of pollution will burning that coal spue into the atmosphere and our lungs???
Not 15 miles from me is a plant that burns coal at the rate of at least 1 long train load from Wyoming every day (sometimes 2 trains a day) - & I'm talking trains of 75 or more coal cars...you can drive by it any day & not see anything coming out of the huge smoke stacks....things have changed since the days when those plants spewed all that polluted smoke.

Just as things change in the new energy industry, things change in the old energy industry also. Read some of the literature & you'll find that burning coal is clean & efficient in the new plants!

Tinster said:
"I've no problem with drilling in 'pristine' areas....they're usually still 'pristine' afterwards. Heck, look at the strip coal mining that's being done in Gillette, Wyoming right now. Once they finish mining an area, you can't tell they were ever mining! The same with oil drilling.

I paid $10.00 for 2.3 gallons of high test this afternoon.


"Well, growing up in the Pennsylvania strip mine areas,
I have to strongly disagree with that statement. Miles
and miles of barren shale rock, poisoned water, no plant
life to speak of, no animal life except a few buzzards circling dead rats.

The poor old folks sold their "mineral rights" for a few hundred
$$ dollars not knowing the 500 acre,family farm was
about to become a lunar landscape barren of all life.
Small wooden farmhouses left perched in the middle of
a destroyed, strip mined coal field.
Lots has changed in the strip mining industry since then, Dale...but you're right - we had to learn the hard way.

Yep, I'm almost there with the cost of 93-octane. I just put 21.116 gallons of 93-octane in my Jaguar...cost an even $70.00...that's $3.399 a gallon...I'm not changing my habits for that....my Jag gets 21-22 mog around town, so not too bad. It would go down if we could drill in some of the places where there are huge deposits - & if we could build new refineries! & there's enough oil under the earth for all our needs.

But, I agree we always need to be looking for new and better sources of energy - just don't kill that which has been so good for so many years.

I go back to my question: <span style="font-weight: bold"> ARE YOU READY TO TAKE YOUR LBC TO THE SCRAPYARD BECAUSE SOME GOV'T PROGRAM DECREES IT A POLLUTER?</span>

&, Basil, my tongue & lip are bleeding!
 
tony barnhill said:
Not 15 miles from me is a plant that burns coal at the rate of at least 1 long train load from Wyoming every day (sometimes 2 trains a day) - & I'm talking trains of 75 or more coal cars...you can drive by it any day & not see anything coming out of the huge smoke stacks....things have changed since the days when those plants spewed all that polluted smoke.

So THATS where all those trains go. We have at least 6 or 7 trains come thru here everyday loaded with coal. Whats worse is the emptys come back the same way. I just read my Popular Mechanics magazine this morning and it had a VERY good article about oil. If you get a chance read it.
grin.gif
 
Yep, that's where they go - & like I said, there may be more than one a day - I usually get caught by at least 1 - because they come at different times in the day....& the empties go back the same way...usually one or the other (full or empty) is sitting on a 2 mile long side track waiting for the other to pass....& I've counted 75 cars before I lost interest.
 
...Yea, that pesky,crazy science, guess we can just stick our heads in the sand and hope for the best. I dont have kids, but I would think those who do would want to err on the safe side.
What is the worst that could happen, we develope new technologies, we end up with a cleaner world, we conserve a little bit for the future, what radical ideas!!
 
tiga2 said:
...Yea, that pesky,crazy science, guess we can just stick our heads in the sand and hope for the best. I dont have kids, but I would think those who do would want to err on the safe side.
What is the worst that could happen, we develope new technologies, we end up with a cleaner world, we conserve a little bit for the future, what radical ideas!!

Mmmff thumth umth immthy immer thummtin thu sthy buth thant thalk gooth enouth to sthay ith.
 
Basil said:
tiga2 said:
...Yea, that pesky,crazy science, guess we can just stick our heads in the sand and hope for the best. I dont have kids, but I would think those who do would want to err on the safe side.
What is the worst that could happen, we develope new technologies, we end up with a cleaner world, we conserve a little bit for the future, what radical ideas!!

Mmmff thumth umth immthy immer thummtin thu sthy buth thant thalk gooth enouth to sthay ith.

One day I expect to turn on the news and find you wearing one of those nice white jackets with the REALLY long sleeves that buttons up in the back screaming something about not drinking the Kool Aid as they but you in back of that nice padded van they have.
grin.gif
 
Thankth!! :rolleyes: Thith thwed hath lathted way longer than I ever would have thaughth...my tongue ith very, very thore!! :whistle:
 
Friends, I apologize…I am going to break a long standing rule and finally speak out on a topic that I have been keenly interested in for a very long time, and that is the topic of Global Warming. As some close associates here already know, mine is more than just a passing interest (some of my friends might tell you I’m obsessed with the topic). I have actually been studying the topic as opposed to forming my opinions based on what I hear on the nightly news.

When I first heard about Global Warming, I only paid it passing interest to be honest, but as I heard more and more about it, my interest increased. Then one day about 3 years ago I heard a certain east coast politician on a talk show insisting that Global Warming was causing increased hurricane activity and strength and that it was only going to get worse in the coming years – all due to Global Warming (and of course us). He was arguing this as a reason we must support the Kyoto Treaty. This was alarming indeed, but being a Senior Analyst, I wanted to see for my self how bad the problem really was. So, I went to the archives of the National Hurricane Center and gathered all of the Hurricane activity records for North America and the Caribbean going back 150 years. Then I plotted the data in several different ways. I plotted each category of hurricane separately, then I plotted “Major” hurricanes all on one chart (Cat 3 and above) and finally, I plotted all hurricane activity combined. What I found was, not only has there not been an increase in hurricane activity in recent years, but if anything the hurricane activity (in terms of strength and frequency) has actually decreased compared to decadal averages. And yes, I have updated my charts with more recent data and it still shows the same thing. But how could this be? After all, the all-knowing, all-seeing IPCC, in their report clearly state that increased hurricane activity is and will continue to increase due to the effects of man-caused global warming. (By the way, unlike many who have opinions on this topic, I have actually read the IPCC “consensus” report on Climate Change). With the last two hurricane seasons being very quite, many in the Global Warming movement have backed off their assertion that global warming is causing increased hurricane activity – now they are hypothesizing that global warming is going to cause a decrease in such activity. How convenient.


Anyway, with this whole Global Warming campaign and the dogma that fossil fuels are evil, and the SUVs are evil, I believe I have been witness to the most effective propaganda campaign in the history of mankind - certainly in my lifetime. Global Warming is more than just an issue now – it is a religion. Those who question its dogma, like myself, are cast aside as heretics or worse.

Nevertheless, it is my opinion that "Man Caused Global Warming," which is the driving force behind the recent nonsense called “Earth Hour” is the biggest hoax ever perpetrated upon mankind. Yes, you heard me right – it is a hoax. I am more certain of this than I have ever been of anything in my life.

That does not mean I think real pollution is “good,” and frankly I resent that implication. What it does mean is I do not believe that C02 is the terrible pollution we are being told it is and it is not causing the earth to turn into a crispy critter. And while it is true that C02 is technically a “Greenhouse gas” it is a relatively insignificant green house gas compared to water vapor which is responsible for much more of the greenhouse effect than C02. If you’re worried about C02 causing global warming, then hold your breath because you produce the stuff with every breath you take.

And while some in this thread have bashed the SUV as being evil and SUV drivers (like my wife by the way) as stupid, consider this: I would be willing to bet that if you put today’s Escalade on an emissions tester with just about any of the older British 4 bangers the folks on this forum drive, you would find that the Escalade, with its computer controlled injection and air-quality systems, produces far less pollution. So if we’re so concerned about pollution, then everyone here just haul your little British cars to the salvage yard.

I keep hearing that the debate is over on global warming. Oh really? When the heck was there ever a debate? I must have missed it. I would love to have a man-to-man debate with Al Gore – I would rip him to shreds – but seriously think about this: have you ever seen Al Gore actually debate his propaganda? The answer is NO, you have not and you NEVER WILL see him in a position where he has to actually defend his BS or even be asked any really tough questions. What you see instead is Gore (And others) going on friendly media venues and making pronouncements that anyone (like myself) who doesn’t buy into the man-caused Global Warming religion (and make no mistake, it is a religion) are akin to people who believe that the Earth is flat.

In an upcoming CBS show, Leslie Stahl (to her credit) attempts a “tough” question by pointing out that a lot of prominent people are not convinced of man-caused global warming, to which Gore responds: “I think that those people are in such a tiny, tiny minority now with their point of view, they’re almost like the ones who still believe that the moon landing was staged in a movie lot in Arizona and those who believe the world is flat,” says Gore. That demeans them a little bit, but it's not that far off," he tells Stahl. Of course Stahl, being the good little Medias foot soldier she is, just accepts Gore’s answer and does not press him or challenge him in any meaningful way. Pardon my language, but what a condescending, self-serving [self-censored]! Understand what Gore is doing here folks - One of the most effective tools that propagandists throughout history have used is the art of marginalizing those who would question the dogma. If you don’t see that is exactly what Mr Gore does with his condescending remarks, then friend, you have blinders on.

Make no mistake; the media is complicit in the perpetration of what I am convinced is the biggest scam in history (a scam which will make people invested in selling Carbon Credits, like Al Gore, very rich). The media will report anything that supports the hoax, but when something or someone comes out that refutes it, the media either doesn’t report it at all, or they downplay it as much as possible, or as in the above example, they marginalize the messenger.

When Al Gore was out touring with his slide show about global warming, he used a picture of some Polar Bears hanging out on some pieces of floating ice. “They’re literally being forced off the planet…got nowhere to go,” Gore breathlessly pronounced – and the skulls full of mush in his audience let out gasps of sympathy for the poor Polar Bears who seemed to be stranded. The AP, New York Times, and many others, published the same picture as “proof” of the effects of global warming. But I’ll bet you a doughnut that you didn’t hear the truth about that picture in the mainstream media. What truth? Click HERE

And speaking of media, I’ll bet most of you heard about it when that Weather Channel info-babe Heidi Plume pronounced on her Blog that any meteorologist who doubts man-caused GW should have their credentials revoked…that got a lot of airtime. But I’ll bet not many of you heard much in the media about the fact that the actual Founder of the Weather Channel, Paul Coleman, has written a letter with his opinion that it (man-caused global warming) is a big scam…his opinion doesn’t fit the template, he’s a heretic, so we won’t here much about that in the main stream media. Likewise I’m sure you heard of the trip that a bunch of Congress members took to Greenland to see first hand the ravages of Global warming, but I’ll bet you have not heard much about the fact that the Ice Flow between southwest Greenland and Canada is at its greatest level in 15 years…bet you haven’t heard that .

While we hear daily about “Climate Change” (and by the way, have you noticed that its not being referred to as Global Warming much any more, but rather they are using the all-encompassing term “Climate Change”) I’ll bet you have not heard much about the more accurate NASA satellite data that now shows there really has been no warming since the global peak in 1998. Far from having risen, global temperatures have in fact stabilized and in some cases even cooled. I’ll bet you haven’t heard much about that little inconvenient fact…it doesn’t fit the template.

Look, I’m not some anti-environment nut who wants to see the planet destroyed. I am a Senior Systems Analyst who does not happen to buy into the hype and the sky-is-falling scenarios that we are being fed. Nor do I buy the hype that fossil fuels are evil. We would not be enjoying the standard of living we do today were it not for fossil fuels and that is a fact. And NO that doesn’t mean I’m against looking for alternative fuels, but while we research those alternatives, and allow the free market to work, we should be drilling everywhere we know there is oil so as to reduce our dependence on foreign oil and maybe even bring the price down while we hunt for the elusive replacement (and by the way Saudi only accounts for 16% of our oil imports – Canada is the largest imported of oil to the US – I’ll bet most people don’t know that). Drilling can be done without destroying the environment. The environmentalists told us that the Alaska Pipeline would harm the Caribou – it did not, in fact it helped them. They told us that drilling at Prudhoe Bay would harm the wild life – it didn’t.

And speaking of drilling…a few years ago the Dept of Interior put on their web site actual pictures of the area in ANWR being considered for drilling. The environmentalists and certain Congress members on a certain side of the isle, screamed bloody murder and insisted that the pictures be removed from the web site. They claimed that to show the public the actual locations being considered was being “too political,” I kid you not. Do you get that – how does that make you feel to know that some people in your government do NOT want you to see the facts when serious issues are being considered? Why were they insistent the pictures be removed? Simple – because they showed the truth that, unlike the rolling hills and “Sound of Music” valleys being portrayed by the environmentalists against drilling, the actual area was the featureless, barren, mosquito-infested costal plains north of the Brooks Range…and a very tiny portion of the massive ANWR area at that.

And speaking of the Global Warming Pied-Piper, while Mr Nobel Prize is out and about preaching to me and you about how we should lower our standards of living, he has been exposed as one of the biggest wasters of energy on the planet, flying around on his Gulf Stream private jet and living in a huge mansion with nearly $30,000/year utility bills (and that's just one of his homes)! Oddly enough, our much-maligned President lives a far more energy conscious lifestyle at his Ranch in Texas than Al Gore even comes close to. Yes, it’s true: Tale of Two Houses.

NOTE: I don’t care one tiny bit what people think of Bush or Gore, but it does look like Gore could learn a thing or two about conservation. But not to worry – Gore is offsetting his energy gulping lifestyle by purchasing the snake-oil otherwise known as Carbon credits – a device invented by PT Barnum I’m sure!

Look folks, as I stated before, one of the most effective methods to shut down debate on any topic is to marginalize those who do not agree with you. Call them names and pronounce that they are crazy – shout it from the rooftops and get a compliant media to front for you. That is exactly what Gore has done, to great effect I fear, with the media’s help. Gore is about to embark on a massive $300 Million propaganda campaign to "educate" us all about Global Warming. Many Hollywood luminaries (some of whom actually graduated high school) are going to be part of this massive campaign - so you are either going to drink Al's Koolaid, or you are going to think for yourselves and recognize the propaganda for what it is. I hope you do the latter.

In conclusion, I am certain that the whole man-caused global warming “religion” is completely bogus. The fact that a lot of unwitting and otherwise intelligent people are led by the nose to believe this nonsense makes me sick to my stomach. I have read the report and I see so many flaws it isn’t even funny.

Someone in this thread chided us that we are ignoring that "pesky science." Well, here's a news flash folks - what is in the IPCC report is not science – it is anti-capitalist, agenda driven propaganda – and a lot of otherwise intelligent people are being sucked in by it. And that is very very sad. Consensus IS NOT SCIENCE! Other than this, I really have no opinion on the topic.

By the way, the following four videos present another point of view that you will seldom, if ever, hear. View them with an open mind.

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<embed src="https://www.youtube.com/v/L6kG-tFDthk&feature=related" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>

<embed src="https://www.youtube.com/v/XAzcsYluUSM&feature=related" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>

<embed src="https://www.youtube.com/v/08guZIdYY88&feature=related" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>
 
Here's another good series of videos.
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<embed src="https://www.youtube.com/v/gZS2eIRkcR0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>
<embed src="https://www.youtube.com/v/dIbTJ6mhCqk" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>
<embed src="https://www.youtube.com/v/v2XALmrq3ro" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> </embed></object>
 
Basil - bravo. Read, sift, analyze, decide, instead of just following philosophies and lifestyles based on "cut and paste", rumor, info-tainment and the latest page refresh.

Geez - I think I've written, erased and rewritten this post a dozen times.

If we sift through the crud and actually demand facts and responsibility, <span style="font-weight: bold">and then actually analyze what we find</span>, the propaganda machines would lose some of their effectiveness.

That takes time - a *lot* of time. Affluence makes it really easy to find other stuff to do.

But I'm not a systems analyst! I don't have the time or resources (or interest)! I'm comfortable already! It's easier to just accept what "they" tell me!

Ya pays yer money - ya makes yer choice.

T.
(man - did I really bungle all that up ...)
 
Basil, there is so much here that this thread will definitly have to be archived for future referrence!!! :cheers:
 
Dang Basil!! I'm truly sorry you spent all that time reseachin'
hurricane data back into whaling times.

I ain't no auto expert, as everyone knows, but an
extreme wind, hurricane expert, that fer a fact I am.

I could have told you the frequency and intensites have
been in decline for several decades. Check yer data base for
the total number of CAT 5 hurricanes to hit Puerto Rico.
Wow!! Only 2 in the past 150 years? my, my , my!!

BUTTT>>>>>>>>because of New Orleans, the bloody insurance
scammers are demanding we upgrade our commercial buildings
to withstand a CAT 5 hurricane with a safety factor of TWO
added to our designs. I am now designing 240+ mph roofing
systems for the pharmaceutical plants. Can you imagine?

Other than a tornado- has 240 mph winds EVER been recorded
on earth?

PS: 19 years ago when I began working in PR, it seldom got
above 90*F in the summer and we had work stop laws and the
temps made news headlines as heat waves.

Now it regularly pushes 100*F and we no longer have the work
heat laws. I know nuthin' 'bout global warming but I'm sure
familiar with Puerto Rico warmning!! About 8*F hotter in 19
year's time

d
 
Basil said:
Other than this, I really have no opinion on the topic.

Basil, could you give us an example of a topic you DO have an opinion on?

Just kidding--a very interesting discussion and both your videos and the ones that followed are thought-provoking. Thanks for breaking your long-standing tradition. :thumbsup:
 
QUESTION: When there's conjecture about something that's critically important to the planet, and to mankind, who you gonna believe?

Please choose an answer among A-E, below:

<span style="font-weight: bold">A)</span> Highly credentialed, dedicated and honorable research scientists from a wide range of institutional backgrounds (thus, no collusion) who have exhaustively researched the pollution problem, and, a majority of whom independently concur that we're ruining the environment (in many ways, not just "global warming") with fossil fuel consumption;

<span style="font-weight: bold">B)</span> Politicians (pick one);

<span style="font-weight: bold">C)</span> Media personalities (ditto);

<span style="font-weight: bold">D)</span> Rush Limbaugh and/or left/right fringe hate mongers (find one on every street corner);

<span style="font-weight: bold">E)</span> Spaghetti (for those who can't decide).

The correct answer (A) would seem to be a no-brainer, but clearly, it is not to many. Why???

What's wrong with this picture? Please don't tell us that the scientific community is lying to us, or being bribed by Al Gore sympathizers. Why doubt the majority of credible scientists on this subject??

Certainly, the doubting or opposing "scientists" are in a vast minority. Why would one choose to believe a minority of "scientists" (a number of whom are not nearly as credible).

Hmmmm . . . . Strange.
 
Dale, I don't doubt your anticdotal observations based on the specific area you are in, however, at least based on data for San Juan over the past 30 years, I see no notable warming trend in general. In fact, for that town, the warmest recorded temps by month in the past 30 years have occurred as follows:

Jan
91.4 Deg F
(in - 1981, 82, 83 and 95)

Feb
96.8 Deg F
(in - 1983)

March
98.9 Deg F
(in - 1983)

April
96.8 Deg F
(in 1983)

May
96.8 Deg F
(in - 1980)

June
96.8
(in - 1975, 1983, and 1988)

July
95 Deg F
(in - 1981)

Aug
96.9 Deg F
(in - 1974 and 1980)

Sep
96.8 Deg F
(in 1981, 1987 and 1995)

Oct
98.6 Deg F
(in - 1981)

Nov
96.8 Deg F
(in 1981)

Dec
93.2 Deg F
(in 1989)

Basil
 
vagt6 said:
When there's a question about something that's critically important to the planet, and to mankind, who you gonna believe? Please choose an answer among A-E, below:

<span style="font-weight: bold">A)</span> Highly credentialed, dedicated and honorable research scientists from a wide range of institutional backgrounds (thus, no collusion) who have exhaustively researched the pollution problem, and, a majority of whom independently concur that we're ruining the environment (okay, I'm not necessarily including "global warming here");

I'm going to believe <span style="font-weight: bold">myself</span> and the highly credentialed, dedicated and honorable research scientists who dissagree with the man-caused global warming HYPE, but who voices are being silenced. Thank you for the demonstration of why propaganda works so well. Did you believe the highly credentialed, dedicated and honorable research scientists who, in the 1970's were warning us that we were headed into another ICER AGE? Did you believe them? Second question - have you read the IPCC report? (because I have)
 
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