TR2/3/3A Water Inside the Engine

[DornTRoriginal]

I decided to drain the oil from the engine and drop the oil pan to look for the missing pin from the rocker arm that fell out just before I sent the car to the body shop 3 years ago, I completely rebuild the engine and cylinder head. What I found inside the pan was some very cloudy ugly looking “milky crud”. It seems to me that the car was left in the weather, by my now famous body shop guy, and water got inside the engine through the valve cover that did not have a gasket or some other way. I pulled the rocker arms and removed the pushrods and noticed that the pushrods had a lot of rust on them and looking down at the tappets I can see that the water was sitting inside the tappets with the new push rods. It is hard to see everything clearly looking down from the top of the head but it looks like the tappets are pitted a little, there’s small dark spots sporadically in each one and the top edge of the tappets look black or dark brown. The very bottom of the tappet, where the ball of the push rod sits is shinny and clean. Looking from under the engine the cam bearings and the bottom of the tappets look fine, the pink engine lube material appears to be doing its job. My dilemma is should I pull off the head and replace the tappets and possibly the push rods? If I do pull off the head do I need to replace the head gasket? The engine has not operated since the rebuild. What are your thoughts?

View attachment 41837

 

[charleyf]

I would pull the head so that you can see exactly what you have. At worst you could have water in the cylinders and therefore rusted liners. Yes change the head gasket. For the cost of the gasket would you pay to redo removing the head if the old gasket failed and caused a lot more damage? If the water only got down to the bottom of the oil pan then you may well have NOT messed up any bearings. If you used a lot of lube when assembling the engine then it will really be paying off at this point. But the only way to really tell is to also pull the lower pan and see exactly what you have.

My thinking is that if it were my car "would I want to be driving a car with an engine that was suspect to have a major failure". Not even speaking about the towing charges but just the total rebuild costs would easily get very high. Look very closely at everything that you can before making any decisions. The gasket sets would run you about $100. The total knowledge will be worth a lot more.
Charley

 

[TR3driver]

Just a thought, HF now sells a cheap borescope that should give you a better view of the cylinders without pulling the head. If they all look OK, I might be tempted to start it and see what happens rather than pulling the head first. I've driven several TR3 engines with significant internal rust issues, and never had a major blow-up. The original engine in TS39781LO did use some oil when I got it, but it had broken rings and a big gouge where the rings had been rusted to the cylinder wall in one cylinder. I only drove it about 6 months before I stuffed some new rings in (leaving the damaged liner in place and reusing the old gasket). It ran like that (commuting to work every day) for another 5 or 6 years and was still running when I sold it (in TS11xxx). The engine in TS11xxx had apparently been rebuilt some time previously with the rear cam bearing turned wrong, I found rust on the pushrods & rocker shaft when I pulled it apart. But that was after driving it from Houston to Los Angeles!

Obviously you can change the pushrods without pulling the head. But from what I can see in your photo, I don't think they need replacement. Those appear to be the beefier aftermarket pushrods, and even the smaller originals were entirely adequate for normal driving. (Assuming of course you're building a show car/driver and not planning on doing any racing.) But clean them up good, you don't want any rust flakes getting loose in the oil if you can help it. Of course you'll be cleaning the pan and changing the oil before doing your cam run-in. Might not hurt to change oil again afterwards.

 

[Brinkerhoff]

Along those same lines ..... I've got a good TR3 engine block I've been dead lifting for close to 43 yrs. , its the least I can do for the hobby because somebody will be in need of it for their car someday . Whether I live that long is another thing.

 

[Geo Hahn]

Just a thought, HF now sells a cheap borescope that should give you a better view of the cylinders without pulling the head...

Not to derail this discussion but I'll mention that excellent 2-mega pixel inspection cameras are available very cheaply on eBay. They plug into your PC USB port. The price has gone up on the one I use but at under 30 bucks it is still a bargain and a tool worth having:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/HD-720P-2-...199595?hash=item3f3af6e8ab:g:SYEAAOSwxCxT5lR2

That is the same seller I bought from and since he is in Walnut CA (not Hong Kong) the shipping is quick.

 

[DornTRoriginal]

I would pull the head so that you can see exactly what you have. At worst you could have water in the cylinders and therefore rusted liners. Yes change the head gasket. For the cost of the gasket would you pay to redo removing the head if the old gasket failed and caused a lot more damage? If the water only got down to the bottom of the oil pan then you may well have NOT messed up any bearings. If you used a lot of lube when assembling the engine then it will really be paying off at this point. But the only way to really tell is to also pull the lower pan and see exactly what you have.

My thinking is that if it were my car "would I want to be driving a car with an engine that was suspect to have a major failure". Not even speaking about the towing charges but just the total rebuild costs would easily get very high. Look very closely at everything that you can before making any decisions. The gasket sets would run you about $100. The total knowledge will be worth a lot more.
Charley

I made the decision to pull the head and inspect everything. I ordered new tappets to have ready and a new head gasket, once they arrive I will dive in. I just think the peace of mind is worth it in the long run, gasket was $150 tappets $60 ugh! Thanks everyone for the advice and support! BTW the lost pin from the rocker end cap has not appeared anywhere yet either? Weird, maybe I'll find it with the head off?? Happy St Patrick's Day!

 

[martx-5]

... I ordered new tappets to have ready...

Just a heads up, in the past there was a bunch of bad tappets (not hardened properly) floating around. What some of the vendors started doing was just selling the ones that had been Rockwell tested to the proper specs. They can be identified by a small divot on the side of the tappet (cam follower/lifter). The set that I bought from British Frame & Engine all had the test divots on them and so far, they are holding up very nicely on my lumpy cam.

https://www.britishframeandengine.com/parts1.html

 

[PatGalvin]

If you had operated the engine at all, I would recommend that you check the aluminum plug in the top of the cylinder head. I rebuilt my engine and tested it in the garage on the rolling chassis in the garage. I ended up with water in my oil as the aluminum plug leaked badly and allowed water in the head to move into my valve cover and down into the oil pad. Was an emulsified oil mess. I pulled the head and took it to the machine shop and had the aluminum plug removed and the hole threaded for a black iron pipe plug (3/4 inch I think). That sealed up nicely and no more water in the oil problems.

If you had your cylinder or engine block tanked, there are aluminum plugs in both that should be inspected and possibly replaced. Take it from me - an unpleasant lesson from the school of hard knocks.

Pat

 

[sp53]

Just a thought, but how did you install the studs for the head? Many maintain to just put them in snug because if people torque in the studs when the head gets torqued, the torque becomes compounded and cracks the block.

 

[charleyf]

I tried to put some torque to the studs going back in the block and cracked the block. Snug sounds right to me.
Charley

 

[DornTRoriginal]

If you had operated the engine at all, I would recommend that you check the aluminum plug in the top of the cylinder head. I rebuilt my engine and tested it in the garage on the rolling chassis in the garage. I ended up with water in my oil as the aluminum plug leaked badly and allowed water in the head to move into my valve cover and down into the oil pad. Was an emulsified oil mess. I pulled the head and took it to the machine shop and had the aluminum plug removed and the hole threaded for a black iron pipe plug (3/4 inch I think). That sealed up nicely and no more water in the oil problems.

If you had your cylinder or engine block tanked, there are aluminum plugs in both that should be inspected and possibly replaced. Take it from me - an unpleasant lesson from the school of hard knocks.

Pat

I remember you situation and I did replace them both during the rebuild.

 

[PatGalvin]

Excellent. I am glad to hear that. There was a lot of pain surrounding those two little plugs!

Pat