TR2/3/3A Update on the blown head gasket

[karls59tr]

Just to refresh your memory I got 8 litres of oil mixed with antifreeze when I drained the oil so I assumed I had a blown head gasket. I should have done a compression test at that point but I didn't. I added fresh oil and filter and ran the motor for a minute or so (no coolant in the block) to flush out the crap mixture. Finally got around to pulling the cylinder head and much to my surprise the head gasket appears to be intact? There is no evidence of a blow out anywhere? The cylinders look dry and there is only light carbon on the piston tops. Is it possible to have a head gasket leak because some head bolts have loosened over time resulting in a leak that does not necessarily obviously show on the gasket? Or does this mean that one of the figure eight gaskets has failed? I sure hope not . I will check the liner protrusion for the correct height above the block but I believe they are correct.Two of the spark plugs were black carbon. The other two were black with a sort of an oily sheen? Unfortunately I did not keep them in order when I removed them to see if the two shinier ones were side by side. Any thoughts?

 

[bobhustead]

Do the protrusion check and then check the head and deck of the block with a good straight edge. Self loosening head bolts are unlikely. Do I recall that you retorqued a while ago? A liquid leak would not necessarily show on the gasket.
Bob

 

[CJD]

Another common leak is the front and rear studs. If the block has ever been lifted by the studs with the head off, it will crack the block around the studs. The coolant will then travel up the stud into the head and from there into the oil pan.

 

[karls59tr]

Another common leak is the front and rear studs. If the block has ever been lifted by the studs with the head off, it will crack the block around the studs. The coolant will then travel up the stud into the head and from there into the oil pan.

Well you might be on to something about the rear studs.I took a look at the cylinder head surface again tonight. When the head was installed the fellow that was helping me do the install over tightened the studs there and created a very fine but hard to see hairline crack at those two studs. I remember pointing that out and we added extra sealant there. I forget what we used for a sealant but you can still see evidence of the "orange rubbery"sealant there.The odd thing is that it was 20 years ago when we did that ???? The car has always ran fine since then! Would it be possible to remove those two studs, coat the threads with sealant and reinsert them into the block(plus add sealant to the top of the crack as we did the first time)and try a new head gasket. I realize that this is a stop gap fix and probably not the proper way to go about it but just putting sealant where the stud meets the block did hold for 20 years. I still have to check the liner protrusions with a straight edge for proper gap and I may find that there is an issue there that may be the real cause? I will try to take photos to give a visual of the gasket and head surface.

 

[karls59tr]

Do the protrusion check and then check the head and deck of the block with a good straight edge. Self loosening head bolts are unlikely. Do I recall that you retorqued a while ago? A liquid leak would not necessarily show on the gasket.
Bob

I will check the liner protrusions and let you know my findings but you might be thinking of someone else with a head gasket problem because I did not retorque the head.

 

[mastaphixa]

Have you inspected the casting plug on top of the head? They absolutely degrade/corrode over time and will allow coolant to escape into the rocker shaft area of the head and end up in the oil pan. I would have thought you would have seen coolant on top of the head when you removed the valve cover though. Just a thought.
Steve Baker

 

[karls59tr]

Have you inspected the casting plug on top of the head? They absolutely degrade/corrode over time and will allow coolant to escape into the rocker shaft area of the head and end up in the oil pan. I would have thought you would have seen coolant on top of the head when you removed the valve cover though. Just a thought.
Steve Baker

No coolant there as I had put a pipe plug there years ago. The strange thing is there is no evidence of coolant in the cylinders....they are dry!

 

[CJD]

The dry cylinders almost have to point to the figure of 8 gaskets. They are the lowest point in the block coolant passages, so they would almost have to be the point of leakage to loose that much coolant. The good thing...they are cheap, and you already have the head off...

 

[mctriumph]

NEVER use non copper figure 8 seals!! You only get 10 or 12 years before failure. There are a lot of these time
bombs out there!!!
Mad dog

 

[karls59tr]

The dry cylinders almost have to point to the figure of 8 gaskets. They are the lowest point in the block coolant passages, so they would almost have to be the point of leakage to loose that much coolant. The good thing...they are cheap, and you already have the head off...

Well to change out the figure of eight gaskets I imagine I am now going to have to remove the block from the car,turn it upside down, and disconnect the pistons? in order to tap out the liners. I have never done this but I do have a proper repair manual. Can you give me a brief rundown on what is involved in doing this? Does the crank have to come out? Maybe this is the time to do a proper rebuild and change out the bearings and piston rings if needed but the car was running fine before the liners failed. Here's another clue to the failure that should have tipped me off. A couple of days before I noticed the oil/coolant issue I was driving along one morning when I saw a puff of white smoke come out of the drivers side of the bonnet accompanied by a sort of a whoosh sound....maybe that was the coolant rushing into the sump? I pulled over and looked under the hood but couldn't see anything wrong so I continued on. A bad decision to drive the car after that.

 

[sp53]

Karl I have taken the pistons out through the top after undoing the rod cap and keeping things organized, and I reused the rod bearing by keeping them together on the rod cap with the pistons. I left the crank shaft in place. These cars were designed this way. I put new rings on and put the pistons back in through the top; it was not that difficult. the engine seem freshened up, and I am still driving that same car today 20 years later.

I did not remove the liners or the figure 8 gasket, but I could have at this point. I am not sure how you can figure out just how the water mixed. John is someone I trust, and he is probably correct thinking it is the figure 8 gasket. I suppose it could be a crack someplace perhaps even in the head. I would say keep looking until you can be as sure as you can then put it back together.

Steve

 

[TFB]

I did this recently and its not hard.
Get the car as far off the ground as you can,drop the pan ,remove rod caps(they are all numbered) tap out liner with piston and rod.
Measure the protusion first so you know how much you may have to add to figure 8 gaskets.
Ser the liners with hold downs before installing piston and rod.
Order new rod bearings and the rod bolt locking tabs with head gasket kit and 8 gaskets and pan gasket.
I had to order new liner piston set but I would also hone and put in new rings if there is significant miles.
You may also want to try the ARP stud set which was a little over hundred dollars from amazon,way cheaper than moss.
I also took apart my head and had it surfaced ,vacuum checked,and had all the valves touched up.
Tom

 

[TFB]

double post

 

[karls59tr]

Karl I have taken the pistons out through the top after undoing the rod cap and keeping things organized, and I reused the rod bearing by keeping them together on the rod cap with the pistons. I left the crank shaft in place. These cars were designed this way. I put new rings on and put the pistons back in through the top; it was not that difficult. the engine seem freshened up, and I am still driving that same car today 20 years later.

I did not remove the liners or the figure 8 gasket, but I could have at this point. I am not sure how you can figure out just how the water mixed. John is someone I trust, and he is probably correct thinking it is the figure 8 gasket. I suppose it could be a crack someplace perhaps even in the head. I would say keep looking until you can be as sure as you can then put it back together.

Steve

That's good to know that the crank could stay in place. The block is still in the car. Is the crank not in the way if you try to push out the liners? I thought you sort of tapped them out with a block of wood . How would you have removed the liners?Also wasn't there something about being able to rotate the liners 90 degrees as a cure for piston slap? Thanks Steve

I did this recently and its not hard.
Get the car as far off the ground as you can,drop the pan ,remove rod caps(they are all numbered) tap out liner with piston and rod.
Measure the protusion first so you know how much you may have to add to figure 8 gaskets.
Ser the liners with hold downs before installing piston and rod.
Order new rod bearings and the rod bolt locking tabs with head gasket kit and 8 gaskets and pan gasket.
I had to order new liner piston set but I would also hone and put in new rings if there is significant miles.
You may also want to try the ARP stud set which was a little over hundred dollars from amazon,way cheaper than moss.
I also took apart my head and had it surfaced ,vacuum checked,and had all the valves touched up.
Tom

Was it hard to tap out the liners. I hear that they can often be really stuck. What did you use to tap out the liners? Are the crank journals not in the way when you do this? Karl

 

[CJD]

I have been studying pictures of the bare block, but I cannot see any other way coolant could dump into the pan. It would have to be the head gasket, head freeze plug, or the FO8's. Even cracks at the outer studs would be a rather slow leak, resulting in overheating long before all the coolant went into the pan.

So...replacing the FO8's. Yes, it can be done with the block in the car, so long as you can safely jack the front up enough to work under the engine comfortably. You will need to disconnect the connecting rods, and then either remove the pistons with rods from the top, or at least push the pistons to the top of the cylinders. Then you will need to use a wood dowel or long stick to hammer the sleeves out from the bottom...carefully working around the crankshaft. It would be smart to tape the bare rod journals on the crankshaft with duct tape, to prevent any chance of nicking them.

Once the sleeves are out, you will have to cover as much of the crank as you can while you clean the pads in the block where the FO8's seat. There will be a lot of scale, and removing it all is the key to getting a good FO8 seal.

"NEVER use non copper figure 8 seals!! You only get 10 or 12 years before failure. There are a lot of these time
bombs out there!!!
Mad dog"

I think I am in trouble...as I have had copper FO8's in the engine for 12 years! I am not worried, as I change the coolant annually, preventing it from becoming acidic.

 

[karls59tr]

Thanks John. With this information I now feel confident I can handle the FO8 replacement. I may even invest in a new 86 mm liner set.

 

[sp53]

I remember when I pulled the pistons out from the top, a question came up about using new rod bears or use the old ones. There were respected opinions on both sides. I do not know the answer. I ended up using the old ones. Plus someone talked me into having the connecting rod hole trued round. I would think at that point a person could use new bearings Anyways, they put the caps together on the rod and torqued them down and then had a way of making the hole perfectly round. I do not know if this made a difference and I think it was only like 6 dollars a hole, so I did it.

Steve

 

[karls59tr]

I remember when I pulled the pistons out from the top, a question came up about using new rod bears or use the old ones. There were respected opinions on both sides. I do not know the answer. I ended up using the old ones. Plus someone talked me into having the connecting rod hole trued round. I would think at that point a person could use new bearings Anyways, they put the caps together on the rod and torqued them down and then had a way of making the hole perfectly round. I do not know if this made a difference and I think it was only like 6 dollars a hole, so I did it.

Steve

I have not decided whether to use the removed liner piston set or buy new. I suppose if the liner walls look good I could just reuse them and put in new piston rings if needed. I just read this in the manual..."When cases of light wear occur and cause piston knock, an improvement can be effected by withdrawing the sleeve and rotating this 90 degrees and so employ the alternate pair of flats on the sleeve." Well I was hearing some piston slap on start up so I will probably do that. Did you do that rotation when you did yours? For the rod bearings is it possible to see if they are still good by just looking for scratches or is there another way to see if they are still good? I did not know that about truing the connecting rod hole. Would there be movement in the gudgeon pin to see if the hole was out of round and needed to be done? Did the machine shop line bore the connecting rod hole somehow hole somehow? Also when you were under the car did you have to measure the connecting rod journals? Karl

 

[poolboy]

You can use plastigauge to check the wear in your bearings ... and you can use this for a visual inspection:

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[TFB]

My liners tapped out very easy but the motor had been rebuilt and had almost no crust.
Yo may want to fill the bloclk when you get the pan off and look around the bottom before you pull the liners and after the head is back on fill full before the pan goes back on.
For the rod bearings I think you will know if you want to reuse them as soon as you look at them.
Tom