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Troubleshooting no start issues _UPDATE posted

wbdvt

Senior Member
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Hello,

First off I have bought this recently (1980 Spitfire) and am hampered that I don't have any previous owner info but it does look like the carb was rebuilt and there is a new fuel pump. The only way I can get the car started is with a shot of starting fluid and then it won't idle. On a test run with it, there is a lack of power.

Here is what I have done, so far:
1. Changed plugs. Original ones were the wrong heat grade.
2. Plugs are covered with dry soot, so either poor spark or too rich mixture.
3. Verified timing marks and rotor position by removing valve cover, plugs and rotating engine by hand to determine TDC
4. Timed best I could but rpms were like 1500 to keep it running.
5. Distributor is an Allison XR-700 and lined up optical slot with rotor position to fire.
6. Tested spark. Not having done this is decades, I thought it looked weak. It was more yellowish than blue. Yes??
7. Compression check. All 4 cyclinders were between 150 to 155 psi, so okay there.

Some other details: ZS 150 carb with a manual choke but if choke is closed then engine shuts down. EGR missing, so the emissions system is not really in place.

Other info: Putting my finger in the air throat on the carb I can not raise or move the piston. I have ordered a rebuild kit, needle and adjustment tool from Moss Motors.
I have ordered a new coil from local parts store.

So, what else should I try and am I on the right track? It seems like I might be chasing 2 problems - one ignition and the other fuel delivery.

Thank you in advance to all who read this and reply!
 

DNK

Great Pumpkin
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Re: Troubleshooting no start issues

For ignition, I might throw the points back in just to rule out the EI unit.
 

Mickey Richaud

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Re: Troubleshooting no start issues

Welcome to the Forum!

Sounds like you're on the right track. When you get into the carb, check the diaphragm. One of the usual suspects. And the piston should move, so something's not lining up properly there.

Others will pop in with more suggestions.

:cheers:
Mickey
 
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wbdvt

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Re: Troubleshooting no start issues

Don,
Thanks for the quick reply but I do not have the points. Car came with the Allison. Don't know how long that has been installed but coil looks original since it has Lucas on it.
Barry
 
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wbdvt

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Re: Troubleshooting no start issues

Thanks Mickey. And I like your emoticons, I will definitely toast a beer when I this starting and running properly.
I did have to add oil to the carb, so who knows. will take pics and post what I find in the carb.
 

DNK

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Re: Troubleshooting no start issues

Barry, go to Napa and pick up a set. They will install right back in the dizzy
 

Brosky

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Re: Troubleshooting no start issues

And a condenser.....
 

DNK

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Re: Troubleshooting no start issues

Yikes, thanks Paul
DOH
 
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wbdvt

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Re: Troubleshooting no start issues

Don,

Thanks, I will check into that when I go pick up the coil, cap and valve cover gasket this afternoon. I got a new cap as the center plug looked like it had white corrosion in there.

When I tested the spark, I just used a plug and grounded it. I saw another test set up that took a plug, cut the tip off, drilled a small hole on flat to attach a wire with screw and had a alligator clip on the wire. Supposedly since the spark has to jump a longer distance this simulates better the spark under pressure. If spark can't jump, then it is definitely too weak.

Have you heard or tried that?
 

TR3driver

Great Pumpkin - R.I.P
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Re: Troubleshooting no start issues

The carb piston being stuck will mess up EVERYTHING else, so I would definitely address that first.

Might be worth double-checking that the Allison is installed properly. The wiring diagram I have shows a ballast resistor incorporated in the wiring harness to the + side of the coil. This resistance needs to be in the coil circuit (if you keep the same coil), but the Allison module needs to get a full 12v supply.

IOW, the module should not be fed from the coil + terminal, unless the ballast resistance has been bypassed somehow and the coil changed to one that does not require an external ballast.

This also implies you need to check this out before installing that new coil, as it will very likely require the external ballast. I don't know how sensitive the Allison units are to excess coil current, but I'll bet they don't like it.

PS, I could be mistaken, but I don't believe an 80 Spit ever had points. I think they came originally with a primitive Lucas electronic ignition. So I'm guessing that the points & condenser will not "just bolt right in". I would work out the other stuff first (especially the carb piston) before trying to swap out the Allison.
 
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wbdvt

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Re: Troubleshooting no start issues

Thanks Randall, there is a ballast resistor still in the circuit and the coil ohmed out a 1.5, so it needs the resistor.

I will double check the wiring. Is that an Allison w/d you have? is it a pdf you could send me?
 

SkinnedKnuckles

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Re: Troubleshooting no start issues

I'm with Randall - something's very wrong if you can't move the carb piston. The cover may have been put on "cocked" so the damper is jammed in the piston. Don't force anything - take the top off the carb and see if it moves then.
 

eschneider

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Re: Troubleshooting no start issues

Surprised it runs at all with a stuck carb piston. Seriously.

As far as start/no start, I'm of the opinion that a spark is a spark. "weak spark" applies mostly to high load and high RPM. To get the lil' lady started, either there's spark, or not. My humble opinion. Similarly, the Crane system generally works, or not. If ya got spark, I wouldn't fret over it.

Fix the carb. Pay attention to the indexing tab on the diaphragm. Those water choke things - if you got one - can get all melty, but on that carb it has to be there, and it has to work correctly. If you're still fretting over spark, find a shop with an ignition scope and slip the guy $20 to quantify "how much" and "how good" your primary and secondary ignition system. Anything else is guesswork.
 
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wbdvt

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Re: Troubleshooting no start issues

Yes, I will definitely do the carb. this has a manual choke on it. Carb kit won't arrive until later this week but I will pull the top off and see what it looks like.
 

TR3driver

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Re: Troubleshooting no start issues

wbdvt said:
Is that an Allison w/d you have? is it a pdf you could send me?
No, I was looking at a diagram that claims to be correct for a US-spec 80 Spitfire. I don't have an Allison diagram.

But it appears I was mistaken about the module requiring 12v. At least the Crane XR700 (which is supposed to be the same design under the skin) instructions seem to imply that the module will run just fine off of the ballast resistor.
 

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wbdvt

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Re: Troubleshooting no start issues

Thanks Randall, that is what I have and the new coil is a 12V with 1.4 ohms so is exact.
 
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wbdvt

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Re: Troubleshooting no start issues

UPDATE:

I pulled off the top of the carb and was able to move piston. Put top back on unable to move piston again. Top off, metal retaining ring off, diaghram off (looks brand new), tried to remove piston but only comes part way up and then seems to hit something. From dwg in Haynes manual (car not carb manual), there doesn't seem to be anything that could blocking it. The only thing I see is the set screw for the needle but that would mean the needle is stuck, no????
 

TR3driver

Great Pumpkin - R.I.P
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Re: Troubleshooting no start issues

So the piston is caught in the carb body? That's a new one on me, can't quite imagine how it would happen, unless ... if you look down the throat with the piston lifted as high as it will go, do you still see the brass "needle" connecting the piston to the bottom of the carb? Or has it been bent so it is pointing down the bore (and hitting the top when you try to pull the piston) ?

Hmm, I guess you could have a similar problem if the locating screw had somehow backed halfway out of it's hole.
 
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wbdvt

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Re: Troubleshooting no start issues

I do see the brass needle and the set screw is firmly inside the piston. Will the adj tool help?
 
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