"Surrey" hard top questions

[Alan_Myers]

Hi all,

Well, I finally tracked down an original hard top for my TR4 and will be refurbishing it. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hammer.gif It's still fitted with all the original trim and rubber, 40+ years old, which have become petrified, cracked, shrunken, brittle, etc. Even those old ratty trim pieces are a big help finding replacements. And, I've found most items needed, but....

One thing is not shown or listed in the Triumph Spares Catalog or in Moss' (or anyone else's) illustrations. On the backlight, where it meets the trailing edge of the door window, there is a rubber seal that fits into a riveted-on, metal channel much like the rubber door seal does.

I am wondering if this seal is just a short piece of the rubber door seal? Or a longer one? Can anyone with an original hard top confirm this?

For illustration purposes, see Moss door trim at https://www.mossmotors.com/Shop/ViewProducts.aspx?PlateIndexID=29166 Item #125 here is the same type of metal channel. Item #120 is the rubber door seal.

There might be a clue on this Moss' illustration... it appears they offer a different rubber door seal specifically for use w/"surrey" (sic). Perhaps the rubber piece I'm asking about is simply a long version that completely replaces the door seal and runs around the door frame and extends up the side of the backlight frame? Again, can anyone confirm this?

I know the hard top normally uses different furflex trim (aka, fuzzy or draught excluder): A special one-piece, very long version running from the top of one side of the windshield frame, around the door frame, up and across the backlight, around the opposing door to finally end at the top of the opposite side of the windshield frame. Perhaps the rubber seal is similar: A special longer version that runs up the side of the hard top?

Speaking of which, I don't know yet what I'll do about that furflex. None of the available colors match the Midnight Blue interior that was original to my car and will be used in the restoration. The car didn't appear to be fitted with furflex originally (I suspect because of the unusual interior color), but instead had a color-matched, harder plastic covered trim.

I notice two lengths of furflex appear to have also been used on the removable aluminum top panel of the hard top, to finish and retain the headliner vinyl. The old stuff still on this panel has faded badly, is sort of orange now! Was the furflex on the removable panel all black? Or, perhaps it matched the furflex used on the rest of the car? Or was it possibly white, to match the headliner? Anyone know?

Another item I'm seeking, not listed on any catalog or illustration and appears to be unavailable, is the stainless steel fender bead, the longer version for use with the backlight and hard top. (Note: the polished trim around the cockpit rim, used with the soft top, isn't used with the hard top/backlight. This exposes approx. 8" of fender/body seam right behind the door. The shorter/soft top version of this bead is #36 at Moss' https://www.mossmotors.com/Shop/ViewProducts.aspx?PlateIndexID=29163) I have one of these in my parts stash, but will need a second for the other side of the car. If anyone has a spare, or knows a source, please get in touch. Otherwise, perhaps I can try to modify a front fender bead to the correct length.

A side note about the TR hard top, which is essentially the first "targa top", copied by Porsche for the 911 some years later: While researching I found that the first 500 made and fitted to approx. CT24600 have an aluminum removable top panel (as does the one I bought). After that the removable panel was made of pressed sheet steel.

I think a visible clue to this change is the polished trim insert in the glazing rubber around the window. The early version (first 500) has two separate pieces of trim, with finishing clips at the top center and bottom center. The later version has a one-piece polished insert, with a single finisher clip at the bottom center. The front windshield saw a similar change of insert trim, I'm not sure exactly when.

One last thing, FYI a "street" roll bar of the most commonly-sold type - sized to allow the soft top to go up and down - will *not* fit within the backlight of the original hard top. The roll bar is about 1" too tall and is against the rear window before the backlight is fully settled onto the cockpit rim.

TIA for any and all insights on the above questions!

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif

 

[MikeH]

Alan, I believe you need item 121 on that Moss illustration. The rubber seal that fits the channel is longer for the Surrey Top Backlight. Mike

63 TR4 Surrey Top

 

[Adrio]

[ QUOTE ]

Another item I'm seeking, not listed on any catalog or illustration and appears to be unavailable, is the stainless steel fender bead, the longer version for use with the backlight and hard top. (Note: the polished trim around the cockpit rim, used with the soft top, isn't used with the hard top/backlight. This exposes approx. 8" of fender/body seam right behind the door. The shorter/soft top version of this bead is #36 at Moss' https://www.mossmotors.com/Shop/ViewProducts.aspx?PlateIndexID=29163) I have one of these in my parts stash, but will need a second for the other side of the car. If anyone has a spare, or knows a source, please get in touch. Otherwise, perhaps I can try to modify a front fender bead to the correct length.


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know about a short and long version of the fender bead. I do know that for my TR4A I bought the one that Moss sells 854-180 and it goes all the way from the tail light to the door opening. I wonder if the 'short' one you have is a modified one.

I still have the old ones and I could measure them for you if you like.

 

[Alan_Myers]

[ QUOTE ]
Alan, I believe you need item 121 on that Moss illustration. The rubber seal that fits the channel is longer for the Surrey Top Backlight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks Mike!

That confirms it. Now I just have to figure out the end of the channel on the B-post. On my car, it falls an inch or so short of the top of the door frame, and looks to have been welded or brazed up into a blob!

Anyway, at least I know what I'm shooting for! Thanks again!
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif

 

[Alan_Myers]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know about a short and long version of the fender bead. I do know that for my TR4A I bought the one that Moss sells 854-180 and it goes all the way from the tail light to the door opening. I wonder if the 'short' one you have is a modified one.

I still have the old ones and I could measure them for you if you like.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi Adrio,

And thanks!

Ahhhhh, interesting!

Perhaps the vendors are selling only the longer version of that trim now. Looks like the TR4A & later have slightly different molding around the cockpit rim, and use the longer beading.

TR4 had parts 805120 & 805119 (Moss 802-310 & 802-320), right and left hand, that cover the seams between the fenders and the body for the first 8-10" after the door opening. The shorter fender beading just barely tucks under those two moldings (Triumph part #706140). It's not a modified one, just different from the later cars.

Those two cockpit rim moldings are removed when the backlight is fitted to the car, exposing the open fender/body seam, so a longer "special order only" beading is shown in the TR4 spares catalog.

Moss 854-180 must equal "special order" Triumph part #750126 (TR4 Spares), which sounds as if it became standard fitment on TR4A and later, along with different cockpit rim moldings. (Someday I need to get a 4A spares catalog!)

I don't think I need to ask you to measure, since the rear fenders are the same parts on TR4/4A, and the beading goes all the way from door opening to tail light.

I forgot to ask earlier, has anyone purchased the hard top headliner kit from TRF? I see they have it on sale right now and wonder if it's a good match for the original crinkly white material (similar to the TR4 sunshade material, if I recall correctly).

Thanks again!
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif

 

[bobh]

Alan,
Where did you find your top? Do you mind if I ask how much you paid for it?
I had a 2 piece top on my '71 TR6. I am thinking about trying to find one for my '75 TR6. I have seen a couple advertised. One person was asking $1800 and the other $2000 (I believe). Both prices are more than I'm willing to spend at this point.

 

[Yellowdog]

bobh,

Take a look at this one: https://www.wilsonmotorco.com/, looks like it might need a bit of work, but asking price is $1000.

EDIT: It is at the very bottom of the page . . . .

All the usual disclaimers; I do not know the seller and have no interest of any kind.

 

[Alan_Myers]

Hi BobH,

My new (old) TR4 hardtop came to me via the Internet. I'd posted I was looking for one on www.triumphowners.com (and several other places), the seller "Googled" it about 2 months ago and got in touch via email.

Hey, that $1000 one looks like a good deal! I bet they get a few calls after we publicize it here.

The prices you were quoted are pretty typical. I was quoted more on several decent examples. I spoke with a TR250 owner who had one on his car at the Palo Alto British Car Show. He paid over $2500 to import one from Europe. I had two responses to an ad in vtr.org classifieds, but both were in the $2400 range, plus shipping. There was another in an eBay "store" for about the same, plus shipping. There was a *broken*, fiberglass replica backlight frame that sold for several hundred dollars on eBay recently! (I stopped bidding at $100.)

Heck, I was halfway tempted to buy the black TR4 on eBay that sold earlier this year for $7900, just for the hard top that was on it! That would have been a shame to remove, though, since it was factory original to that particular car, which was pretty nicely restored.

These tops are getting rare and I made it even harder on myself by waiting for a "correct" aluminum one for my '62. There were only 500 of those made.

When it's done, my car should be a pretty faithful replica of the production class TR4s raced in the 12 Hours at Sebring and 24 LeMans in the early '60s (with my own choice of colors and a few other variations). This top is correct for that, or for a replica of a factory rally cars.

I was also guite careful the top's window was in good shape, since it's very expensive to replace. I appreciated that it came still fitted with all the original trim, too, even though that will need to be replaced. Having original samples to compare with replacement/repro items is always helpful. And, finally, I preferred to inspect the top carefully before handing over any dinero, which I was able to do.

So, in the end I paid the low end of your scale for a hard top that needs refurbishing and paint, but got a few other things along with it (a set of headers, carb parts, some new rubber seals including the expensive one for the hard top's backlight window). I didn't have to pay any shipping or entrust it to UPS. The seller is out of Reno, but is currently visiting family about 60 miles from my home. So I drove over last Friday to meet him and work out a deal. (BTW, the seller told me he'd just *given* a TR A-type gearbox, complete with the OD, to a friend. I asked if he had any more spares, but he doesn't, dammit!)

I estimate it will cost another $200 to get this top back into "like new" condition, before final paint.

You know, to be honest, I'm not all that jazzed about the two-piece hard top on TR6. To me, it just looks a little odd on the squarer lines of that car. I think this is because the TR4/4A/5/250 hard top shape sort of mimmicks the lines of the front of the Michelotti cars, maybe the "power bulge" in the hood, too. Personally, I really like the original hard top Triumph offered for TR6, on TR6.

But, hey, that's just my opinion. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif

 

[Andrew Mace]

[ QUOTE ]
Take a look at this one: https://www.wilsonmotorco.com/, looks like it might need a bit of work, but asking price is $1000....

[/ QUOTE ]Hmmm, looks as if it will need a good bit of massaging on the roof part...lots of little dents and such. But the price is right, based on others I've seen advertised!

 

[Alan_Myers]

[ QUOTE ]
Hmmm, looks as if it will need a good bit of massaging...lots of little dents and such.

[/ QUOTE ]

Frankly, I don't think there is a single body panel on my car that won't need some TLC! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hammer.gif

On the other hand, that can probably be said of most TRs! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif

 

[Guest]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hmmm, looks as if it will need a good bit of massaging...lots of little dents and such.

[/ QUOTE ]

Frankly, I don't think there is a single body panel on my car that won't need some TLC! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hammer.gif

On the other hand, that can probably be said of most TRs! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
Tired of beating panels and fixing rust? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/hammer.gif
For any of you looking for an adventure, there are two (2)1976 TR6's (and an '81 MGB) that are BRAND NEW, never been titled cars that have been in climate-controlled storage since their births. These cars are owned by Paretti Imports of Metairie, Louisiana (New Orleans) and are stored somewhere in Baton Rouge. (This info is a repeat of same in past forum, just an expansion of same) The TR's are "loaded" with hardtops, etc. I went by the dealership (Paretti Imports is the Jag dealer in the New Orleans area) over the weekend on one of my forays into the destruction of N.O. to verify their continued existence and chatted with the head salesman. Getting past this guy is like getting past a pit bull at a crack house. Not a very friendly Yat. (Yat: a derogatory term for a New Orleans native. They pretty much all wear their hair slicked back and say "where y'at" with a Brooklynese accent.) People like you, Alan, that want a challenge, might be able to sweet-talk your way into acquiring one of these jewels. (I say this because you have to admire someone that would pursue a rare hardtop from Europe so doggedly.) Probably the only untitled Triumphs in existence. The word "challenge" is an understatement. I would think that first buying a new Jaguar might get you in the door, or some other sign of good intention. The "old man Paretti" would be the only avenue of approach. Perhaps appearing as Mrs. Paretti from Heaven telling them to "sell the Triumphs" would work but you would have to be good at a seance. The guard-dog salesmen are there just to snipe at you. Grand theft auto works, too /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cowboy.gif(insert humour here). Good night and Good luck.

Bill

 

[bobh]

I contacted Wilson last week. The top is sold, pending the receipt of money from someone in France.

The top I had om my '71 TR6 was the aluminum version. I paid $25 for it around 1975. What a difference 30 years makes!