Side-Change Gearbox Stuck in Top Gear

[Crusty]

Re: side change gear box stuck in top gear

Hello Lawk,

No, I havent yet. I need help which I cant get as we are still keeping our social distance.
Probably be another three or four weeks or so before I can get at it.

I will let you know what the problem is but like you I am dreading pulling the gearbox out.

crusty

 

[Crusty]

Re: side change gear box stuck in top gear

I have started to tackle the problem with my gearbox. Getting the transmission cover off is proving to be a difficult job. At one end the handbrake gets in the way and stops the cover being able to be moved backwards, to clear the gear lever. At the other end the gear lever, being stuck in top, is low down and prevents me lifting the cover up and over it.
Looking at the problem, I could remove the handbrake, but I don't think that would still give me enough room to take the trans cover off with it stuck in top.

If I could remove the gear lever, this would make the job a lot easier.

I dont know if A) Is it possible to remove the gear lever while it is in top gear? or does it have to be in neutral?
B) Will I be able to put it back in the right place, without any trouble?
C) Or, simply, is this a stupid idea?

I would be grateful for any advice or comments as to the wisdom, or otherwise of the idea.

Crusty

 

[TimK]

THere is a small cover above the big trans cover that needs to be removed. Mine had screws that were covered with some kind of sealant that I had to remove to find the screws.

 

[Jack T]

Re: side change gear box stuck in top gear

Crusty, it's a bit of a Chinese puzzle but it will come out with both the handbrake and gearshift in place. I usually had to pull the handbrake up as far as it would go and then some.

 

[Crusty]

Re: side change gear box stuck in top gear

Thanks Jack. I can get around the handbrake problem, but in top gear the lever is very low down, almost horizontal.I seem to recall that when I put the trans cover on a while ago, I had to have the gear lever in first to get it vertical enough to get it to fit in place. To get the cover off, it has to move rearwards down the gear lever, which being horizontal, stops the cover being able to be lifted at the same time. It looks like the back of the cover will foul the body behind the seat before it clears the gear lever.

Crusty

 

[TimK]

My cover had a triangular piece cut out of it around the gear shift hole which makes me now think may have been because the gear lever may have been stuck in 4th at some time before I acquired the car. Maybe you will need to do the same thing. I fashioned a piece of aluminum to seal the cut out part.

 

[Randy Forbes]

Even with it stuck in 4th, you should be able to remove the lever easily enough. The three nuts are right below the rubber boot opening.

As for the handbrake, if you back off the rear brake adjusters, you can raise the handle substantially higher.

Upon reassembly, make sure the "cup" portion of the rubber boot is secure over the shift lever pivot ball, I use a large tie-wrap to keep it in place. Once the tunnel cover is on, you can work the top lip into place around the opening, without pulling the "cup" off the xmsn.

 

[Jack T]

Re: side change gear box stuck in top gear

Thanks Jack. I can get around the handbrake problem, but in top gear the lever is very low down, almost horizontal.I seem to recall that when I put the trans cover on a while ago, I had to have the gear lever in first to get it vertical enough to get it to fit in place. To get the cover off, it has to move rearwards down the gear lever, which being horizontal, stops the cover being able to be lifted at the same time. It looks like the back of the cover will foul the body behind the seat before it clears the gear lever.

Crusty

Yeah, I forgot about your not being able to move the gear lever. Since you will be taking the side cover off anyway, remove the lever as Randy describes above. Just be aware that you don't want to test fate by trying to reassemble the same way, since getting the bush for the shift lever properly seated is tricky. I've had to fish out the bush from the bottom of the 'box on a couple occasions.

 

[Crusty]

I have made progress today.The trans cover is off. This was not possible without removing the gear lever, there was simply not enough room with it in as it lies too flat.
The gearbox is exposed and I have started to drain the oil.
When I removed the drain plug, with the first rush of oil that came out, a little ball fell out as well. ( only one) It looks undamaged and nice and bright. The oil was clean and I couldn't feel any gritty material in the oil so I am hoping the gears etc are not damaged.

I am wondering where the ball came from. I see in the workshop manual that there are three balls that spaced vertically up the side of the gearbox. These have springs behind them and coincide with the three shifter shafts. On the top of the gearbox, underneath a small plug with a square on top, are two balls, one on top of the other. They are not spring loaded.

Can any one tell me what these two balls purpose in life is??

That is me done for this week. Next Sunday, off comes the side cover and I can look inside.

I am grateful for the comments and the helpful advice from forum members. A job is very lonely when you don't know what you are doing!!!

Crusty

 

[Bob_Spidell]

... On the top of the gearbox, underneath a small plug with a square on top, are two balls, one on top of the other. They are not spring loaded.

Can any one tell me what these two balls purpose in life is??
.
.

Crusty

These two balls go between the shifter shafts, on either side of the center shaft. They prevent two gears from being selected simultaneously which, as Magnus Karlsson so eloquently put it: "would cause the car to remain stationary." Magnus has some excellent videos on Healey gearboxes; the center and side shift are very similar except for the position of the lever: http://healeyspecialists.com/videos/

 

[Randy Forbes]

THREE (3) balls, from your 3rd-4th synchromesh hub.

This

Should look like this

Those are the detent balls, and in conjunction with the detents in the selector fork rods, keep the gears engaged. Otherwise, they'd pop back into neutral (some do, when the hubs get worn enough).

 

[Randy Forbes]

To add visuals to Bob's post...

 

[Jack T]

I have made progress today.The trans cover is off. This was not possible without removing the gear lever, there was simply not enough room with it in as it lies too flat.
The gearbox is exposed and I have started to drain the oil.
When I removed the drain plug, with the first rush of oil that came out, a little ball fell out as well. ( only one) It looks undamaged and nice and bright. The oil was clean and I couldn't feel any gritty material in the oil so I am hoping the gears etc are not damaged.

I am wondering where the ball came from. I see in the workshop manual that there are three balls that spaced vertically up the side of the gearbox. These have springs behind them and coincide with the three shifter shafts. On the top of the gearbox, underneath a small plug with a square on top, are two balls, one on top of the other. They are not spring loaded.

Can any one tell me what these two balls purpose in life is??

That is me done for this week. Next Sunday, off comes the side cover and I can look inside.

I am grateful for the comments and the helpful advice from forum members. A job is very lonely when you don't know what you are doing!!!

Crusty

The loose ball you found very likely came from your 3rd/4th synchro hub. One or two may have fallen out if the engagement collar slid too far forward when you shifted into 4th, with the remaining one or two preventing the collar from sliding back to neutral. Thus your not being able to shift out of 4th. The balls in the hub and the ones in the case for the shift rods are all the same size so you won't know for sure until you remove the side cover and look inside.

The 'extra' two balls in the case prevent more than one shift rod at a time moving into an engaged position. While there are detents in the sides of the rods for the spring-loaded balls to engage when in neutral and each gear, there is also a detent in the top of the reverse rod, the bottom of the 3rd/4th rod, and both top and bottom of the 1st/2nd rod. When one of the rods is moved to engage a gear, the two balls serve to lock the other two rods into position, preventing the possibility of engaging two gears at the same time. Once you have the pieces apart you can see its simplicity.

Wish I were able to offer more than moral support, as I just recently had a couple of these boxes apart and back together. I found it good therapy with nowhere to go.

 

[Jack T]

Forgive me for repeating what Bob and Randy so excellently posted while I was typing.

 

[Bob_Spidell]

Randy, the ends of those shift rods look pretty corroded; was that box in water?

Edit: Further to Randy's and Jack's posts; would a missing or damaged 'buffer' in the oval depression in the bell housing allow a hub to move too far, losing one or more of its detent balls? Or does the buffer just cushion a shift motion, or both?

 

[Randy Forbes]

Randy, the ends of those shift rods look pretty corroded; was that box in water?

Edit: Further to Randy's and Jack's posts; would a missing or damaged 'buffer' in the oval depression in the bell housing allow a hub to move too far, losing one or more of its detent balls? Or does the buffer just cushion a shift motion, or both?

It stood on the bellhousing for years (decades?) so it is possible that water__somehow?__settled into that pocket the rods protrude into. I polymer coated them with a dry-film lubricant, and they've been in service since these pictures were taken, so at a minimum, they're adequate

The possibility of the rubber pad, assuming the correct thickness, is used to both dampen the rods AND limit travel has been discussed recently (probably in this thread) and I'll admit that I hadn't thought of it being used in that regard; or maybe I had, memory isn't as dependable as my Healey any more.* That's certainly a plausible concept though.




* NOT as bad as it sounds, I've had relatively few problems with the Healey in the last decade, more than I can say for myself


Edit: apparently I HAVE given it some prior thought...

 

[Bob_Spidell]

That's a weird pattern in the buffer hole. I'd expect three circles, corresponding to the ends of the shafts, but a 'swirl' pattern? I've seen it in other pictures of the hole as well.

 

[Randy Forbes]

That's a weird pattern in the buffer hole. I'd expect three circles, corresponding to the ends of the shafts, but a 'swirl' pattern? I've seen it in other pictures of the hole as well.

End mill

 

[Bob_Spidell]

Ah, they're milling marks.

 

[Randy Forbes]

Ah, they're milling marks.

Sloppy ones, but yes!