TR6 Car won't start after backing out of garage

[pdplot]

Well it happened. Started car in about 10 seconds and backed it out of garage to check oil after service yesterday and to take for a short ride. After checking oil level to make sure shop did not overfill, I got back in, turned key - starter made a 1/2 second noise, then nothing. System completely dead - no lights, horn, nothing. Checked battery voltage across terminals: 12.58 volts. Attached jumper cables from Subaru and tried to start. Lights, horn ok. Tried to start. 1 second starter noise, then nothing - like a dead battery. Disconnected battery thinking it might be a shorted battery, reattached jumpers to cables and tried to start. Same result. Subaru was running when batteries jumped - if that makes any difference. Checked fuses. All ok. Car ran perfectly driving home from the garage last night and started normally this morning. I'm stumped. In 65 years, I never had this happen. Any ideas?

 

[Brinkerhoff]

Sounds like the wiring connection on the solenoid.

 

[pdplot]

One thing I forgot to add. Battery was purchased from NAPA June, 2001. First thing I do tomorrow is buy a new one.
Solenoid connection looks ok. Even if it wasn't, would that cause the entire electrical system to go dead? I think I jinxed myself when I said this car never died on me in 21 years...

 

[TR-3rg]

Hi,

I don't know what Triumph you have, but the wires to the amp gauge came off my TR-3a once. It shuts the car down. If you have a push button in the solenoid, see if it will crank. I did that and hooked up a jumper wire to the coil and drove a mile home.

RG

 

[Sarastro]

Well, you're certainly due for a new battery, but I think you also have a bad connection somewhere near the battery, very likely at the solenoid, but it could be almost anywhere. Start checking connections by jiggling them--bet you'll find something loose. If that doesn't work, check for voltage at both sides of connections and you'll see quickly where you're losing it.

 

[DougME]

I've had cables ends go bad where they enter the terminal lug . I used a regular jumper cable clamped directly to the battery itself and touched it to the starter terminal to check. Test for ground the same way.

 

[dklawson]

a 1/2 second noise, then nothing.
System completely dead - no lights, horn, nothing.
Attached jumper cables from Subaru and tried to start. Lights, horn ok. Tried to start. 1 second starter noise, then nothing - like a dead battery. Disconnected battery thinking it might be a shorted battery, reattached jumpers to cables and tried to start. Same result.

What sort of noise... both on the first start attempt and when you hooked up the jumper cables?
Are you saying that when the jumper cables alone didn't help you completely disconnected the TR battery and hooked the jumper cables directly from the Subaru to the battery cables on the TR?

 

[pdplot]

Yes. That's what I did.
The same noise it would make with an (almost) dead battery.

 

[pdplot]

New NAPA battery - $103.00. The last one in 2001 cost me $63.00. Result? Car started instantly. Ran for a few minutes to charge battery. It was the way that it died that had me fooled. Usually they show some signs like slow cranking, dim lights, etc. but this one was good to the last. I guess that final start pushed it over the edge. I still wonder why it wouldn't start when I bypassed the dead battery. Perhaps the Subaru draws a lot of amperage just running in place leaving not enough juice to start another car. Thanks for your help. I'm glad it was something stupid - like it usually is.

 

[NutmegCT]

Just possible you've got a problem with the charging system - causing the old battery to give up the ghost.

Might want to check the output from the generator/regulator; don't want the new battery to slowly wither away.

Just my two cents.
Tom in CT

 

[dklawson]

It's also worth mentioning that there are "booster cables" and "jumper cables" with the later having a lot larger copper conductors. I have experienced booster cables failing to carry enough current to turn an engine over. Switching to jumper cables made all the difference.

 

[Popeye]

I'll second the "jumper cables"... smaller wire is used to cut costs. I have noticed some get a little warm after jump starting a car - too much resistance in the line.

 

[pdplot]

You're right. These did seem a little warm after I disconnected them. AFAIK, my alternator is fine. Charged up the battery after about 5 minutes of running at 2500 rpm. I have an ammeter in my car not the voltmeter (or battery condition indicator as it was called on my 1940 Ford sedan). Is there any advantage one to the other? Why did Triumph switch?

 

[DavidApp]

Old batteries use to crank slower and slower but I have noticed that newer batteries seem to just die with little or no warning. They have probable reduced the lead plates to the point that a 48 month battery lasts 48 months and 1 day.

David

 

[dklawson]

I have an ammeter in my car not the voltmeter Is there any advantage one to the other? Why did Triumph switch?

It wasn't just Triumph who switched.

There are two types of ammeters. The most common type requires that all of the current to/from the battery (excluding the starter motor current) flow through the ammeter. That was OK when you were talking about a 20 Amp generator and 10 AWG power wires. Almost every Lucas alternator is capable of supplying 34 Amps or more. This increase in capacity meant that heavier cables and heavier ammeters were required. The penetration through the firewall and the increased current became a safety concern. Contrast that to a voltmeter which can still use small gauge wires carrying almost no current to alert the driver of charging issues.

Some people still prefer the information provided by the ammeter and don't consider its wiring with an alternator dangerous. For others the voltmeter provides sufficient information and is easier to deal with when customizing dash wiring. In general, the idiot light used with 2 (or 3) wire alternators is often sufficient.

 

[pdplot]

Has anyone switched to a voltmeter or is it more trouble than it's worth? I dread going behind the dashboard.

 

[gbtr6]

New NAPA battery - $103.00. The last one in 2001 cost me $63.00. Result? Car started instantly. Ran for a few minutes to charge battery. It was the way that it died that had me fooled. Usually they show some signs like slow cranking, dim lights, etc. but this one was good to the last. I guess that final start pushed it over the edge. I still wonder why it wouldn't start when I bypassed the dead battery. Perhaps the Subaru draws a lot of amperage just running in place leaving not enough juice to start another car. Thanks for your help. I'm glad it was something stupid - like it usually is.

We the same problem with our Mini Cooper. Failed to start, replaced an older battery. Got the new one in, and it gave up the ghost quickly. It had a bad cell and shorted under load, will give 12volts plus at rest, but did not have any juice for load. Next time, take it to a parts store and have it load tested. Also, might be good to check the charging circuit under load as well.

Perry

 

[dklawson]

Has anyone switched to a voltmeter or is it more trouble than it's worth? I dread going behind the dashboard.

The conversion is not hard.
Disconnect the battery.
Behind the dash, locate the ammeter wires.
Remove ammeter wires from the gauge and join them ALL together (excluding any ground wires and bulb wires).
Insulate the joined bundle of ammeter wires so they can never touch ground.
Remove the ammeter and put the voltmeter in the empty hole.
Run two wires (green and black) from the voltmeter.
(On negative ground cars with aftermarket gauges, green goes to gauge +, black to -. On Smiths voltmeters, it doesn't matter which terminal receives the green or black wires).
Run the green wire to any point another dark green wire connects behind the dash.
(Dark green wires are switched, fused circuits).
Connect the black wire to ground.
Reconnect the battery.

Alternatively, leave the old ammeter in place and functioning and add an auxiliary volt meter. When adding the meter, use the green and black wire connections I mentioned above.

 

[TR3driver]

Some people still prefer the information provided by the ammeter and don't consider its wiring with an alternator dangerous. For others the voltmeter provides sufficient information and is easier to deal with when customizing dash wiring. In general, the idiot light used with 2 (or 3) wire alternators is often sufficient.

Just to expand on that a bit, I much prefer an ammeter, even with a big alternator. It tells you what is happening now, while a voltmeter only indicates history. In addition, it will show you lots of things (if you know how to read it) that a voltmeter never will; like whether the brake light switch is working or if you left the headlights on. Easily see the difference between a bum alternator or a battery with a shorted cell, etc.

Of course, I'm a bit prejudiced, as I once had a fire that would not have happened if I had an ammeter to show the shorted battery. Voltmeter led me to believe the alternator had died, so when I got home I put a battery charger under the hood to top the battery back up. I lived in a bad neighborhood then, so I closed the hood to keep the charger from growing legs and walking off. I'm not certain, but I'm guessing the circuit breaker in the charger opened and caused a spark, which set off the explosive hydrogen/oxygen mixture coming out the battery vents. Anyway, someone knocked on the door an hour or two later and asked if I knew my car was smoking!

IMO there is a good reason they call them "idiot" lights. Better than nothing, but not much. I've seen lots of failures (like an open diode) that can cause problems but won't turn the light on.

If the risk of having those big hot wires under the dash worries you, add a fusible link to the circuit. Most modern cars have the fusible link even without the wires under the dash.

 

[TR3driver]

Some people still prefer the information provided by the ammeter and don't consider its wiring with an alternator dangerous. For others the voltmeter provides sufficient information and is easier to deal with when customizing dash wiring. In general, the idiot light used with 2 (or 3) wire alternators is often sufficient.

Just to expand on that a bit, I much prefer an ammeter, even with a big alternator. It tells you what is happening now, while a voltmeter only indicates history. In addition, it will show you lots of things (if you know how to read it) that a voltmeter never will; like whether the brake light switch is working or if you left the headlights on. Easily see the difference between a bum alternator or a battery with a shorted cell, etc.

Of course, I'm a bit prejudiced, as I once had a fire that would not have happened if I had an ammeter to show the shorted battery. Voltmeter led me to believe the alternator had died, so when I got home I put a battery charger under the hood to top the battery back up. I lived in a bad neighborhood then, so I closed the hood to keep the charger from growing legs and walking off. I'm not certain, but I'm guessing the circuit breaker in the charger opened and caused a spark, which set off the explosive hydrogen/oxygen mixture coming out the battery vents. Anyway, someone knocked on the door an hour or two later and asked if I knew my car was smoking!

IMO there is a good reason they call them "idiot" lights. Better than nothing, but not much. I've seen lots of failures (like an open diode) that can cause problems but won't turn the light on.

If the risk of having those big hot wires under the dash worries you, add a fusible link to the circuit. Most modern cars have the fusible link even without the wires under the dash.

PS, another point to be aware of, the voltmeter may not accurately indicate actual battery voltage. Since it is wired into the ignition switch (as Doug outlined above), any voltage drop through the ignition switch, fuse, etc. shows up as a lower reading on the voltmeter.