Anyone understand the CA DMV rules for antiques?

[jjbunn]

This isn't a Triumph specific question, so forgive me.

Suppose you buy an antique car (e.g. MY 1969) from out of state, that you intend to restore i.e. not drive or place on the public highways for many months until it's restored. The car is shipped to you on a trailer, not driven.

Do you have to immediately register the car with the DMV and pay the Use Tax, and file NoOp, or is it legal to wait until the car is ready for the road before registering it?

After reading the DMV web site several times, I am not clear what to do, and would appreciate some help.


Thanks!

 

[Grantura_MKI]

I will let you in on what I have been through with this lovely group of people. First off, have the car verified and get a CA title in your name before you start to restore. Why you might ask? Well years ago I restored an E-type that had a New York paperwork. I restored the vehicle, took it the be verified, had ALL paperwork. One week later they informed me that the CA title was revoked and I would need to start over. Took the vehicle in to the DMV again, was told the the New York doc's where not good in CA, as NY uses registration slips and does not issue titles...this meant that I needed a non-refundable bond. Second...all of the paperwork that states how much was spent on the restoration was denied...this was a big one as well...they pulled out the CPI price guide and I was taxed on the current restorted value. PLEASE, get the title FIRST!!

 

[mrv8q]

I agree, you will want a California title on the car, for insurance purposes. You will need to pay CA sales tax on what you paid for the car, and then file a non-op registration. You can get a one day road permit for a non-op car; I suggest you do that when you eventually bring the car back to the DMV for serial number checking, etc. You will need to have a DMV document signed by a CA peace officer attesting to the car's serial number, to get a CA title for the car.

I you're a member of the AAA, they can be helpful in explaining the documents you will need.

 

[TR6oldtimer]

You will not like this, but go, or make an appointment with the DMV, then go and talk to them. Get the paper work you will need, and take notes of the process you will need to follow.

Be nice and polite, thank them for their help, and ask if you can get the same clerk when you return.

Good luck.

A little story. Years ago I built a dune buggy I intended to tow, so I needed a license. Well, the buggy was built from two or three different autos and trucks. As it turned out, the frame was from a Plymouth pickup truck and had no registration serial number, the engine was from a 48 Merc, and likewise had no registration serial number. The DMV clerk was not happy and was inclined to believe the parts were stolen. He asked me if I intentional built the buggy to avoid identifying the source of the parts.

To which I said. "Hey, I am 18 years old, this buggy looks like it was made by an 18 year old, do you really think I would go the extent you imply and build this?"

He agreed. At the time I was happy to get the license and unhappy he agreed my buggy was crap.

 

[justin_mercier]

If you buy a project car, always get the paperwork done ASAP and at the value of the project, otherwise you're likely to pay a % value of the fully restored vehicle when you do go to register it instead. If you pay 3600 for a car in need of restoration and then pay 250 or so in tax now, it's far better than taking that 3600$ car, restoring it to say 15,000$ in worth, and then having to pay 1,000$ later in tax.

 

[Brosky]

No normal human being is intended to be able to understand anything about any particular state DMV or RMV. With the exception of being an illegal alien and thus knowing how to get a drivers license or state ID card that will give you more free benefits.

 

[smaceng]

Kevin has it right.When I bought my bugeye, which was in boxes, I had the PO give me the bill of sale based on the car value. The extra parts were part of a second bill of sale.
Scott in CA

 

[TR3driver]

Although I don't doubt the above, my experience was very different. My project TR3 was a "barn find" with no paperwork at all. I didn't want to take a chance on doing any work and then finding out I couldn't get a title, so I trailered most of the parts (tub on frame, loose doors and fenders) down to the DMV to apply for a title. They refused to take my application because it had to be a "complete vehicle" and was "not complete" without seats!

So I went back home, threw in a pair of seats (and bolted on the fenders, doors and hood for good measure). They then allowed me to submit my application for registration and title. As part of the application, I had to write down what I had paid for the car, so I only paid tax on $300 (not it's value).

Also, according to my insurance agent, the parts would be covered under my homeowner's policy as "contents", only until I added the car to my auto policy or got a title for it (showing it was a "vehicle"). But since the state requires proof of insurance to issue a registration (and I was also anxious about keeping my black plates), I went ahead and added it to the auto policy ASAP. Had to wait to get comprehensive coverage though, as they insisted on inspecting the assembled car first.

The Stag was also somewhat similar, the DMV/CHP invalidated the paperwork I got with the car (because the VIN plate had obviously been tampered with), but ultimately accepted my statement about what I had paid, instead of trying to assign a value to the car.

No doubt it varies greatly with which clerk you happen to get; so if one of them is uncooperative, I would suggest trying again at a different branch (or at least different time of day), without showing them whatever paperwork you got the first time. On the TR black plates, I wound up having to find the applicable DMV code on-line, and literally telling the clerk her job. The first clerk insisted on doing it wrong, and Sacramento denied it. The second one tried to tell me it couldn't be done. After standing there for what seemed like hours, alternately asking to see a supervisor and the code book, she finally let me submit "whatever I wanted" and shipped it off to Sacramento. I filled out two handwritten pages of "Statement of Facts", making sure to hit every single point of the code relevant to my case, and the folks in Sacramento approved it (after writing back to say I had to pay another $60 for some odd reason). At this point, I honestly believe that both clerks were incapable of reading and understanding the vehicle code, so they simply could not tackle anything they "had never done before".

 

[tdskip]

Hi guys - I have to say that I've personally found CA DMV good to work with, and the AAA offices to be exceptionally helpful.

As stated above, you'll need to get the VIN verified and then register her as a non-op and from there you are good to go. I wouldn't be afraid of the process personally.

 

[JohnB]

For what it's worth, I had a similar experience to Randall.

When I finally got my TR2 roadworthy after having it "non-opped" for 30 years, I decided to apply to keep the original black w/yellow lettering plates also. Turns out I had to completely re-register the car. They don't keep records back that far. Massive paperwork and had to have it inspected also, although I had a deputy friend do that form for me.

It only took the Cal. DMV from March to last week to finally approve my request and issue a new registration and stickers. At least they gave me a 2-month temporary permit so I could drive it from March on. I just loved going back every 2 months for a new temp. permit!

 

[HealeyBN7]

When I registered my Peerless GT project a couple years ago, I used an outside agent to complete a VIN verification on behalf of the DMV. This cost a little under $100.00 for him to visit my house, look at the VIN and sign over the papers. It seemed a bit expensive, but the effort to load the car on the trailer, take it to the DMV and answer their questions just seemed too painful.

As a side benefit, he was clearly a car guy and had an understanding of the "restoration" process. I then took the signed VIN Verification form to the DMV and they accepted it as if it was their own.

By the way, AAA wouldn't come out for a site visit either...

The car was then registered as non-OP.

Dean

 

[cheseroo]

I'm not up on the latest rules but I believe that you are supposed to register the vehicle within 10 days of purchase although I can't recall ever being penalized for not doing so (outside of any past due fees). I agree with the others that you should register it prior to doing anything (assuming it's pre-76). There is a whole bunch of advantages and few disadvages to not doing so. In addition to the things listed by others, Hagerty and the like will want it registered to you in order to obtain in-restoration insurance. My 250 came from out of state on a bill of sale. I took it to AAA to be verified and registered. The only hiccup was fighting to keep the original CA black plates. The guy had moved out of state but never registered it there. I'd avoid the DMV at all costs unless it's absolutely necessary and from your description, it doesn't sound like it's necessary (assuming you are an AAA member)

 

[TR3driver]

I'd avoid the DMV at all costs unless it's absolutely necessary and from your description, it doesn't sound like it's necessary (assuming you are an AAA member)

There again, different experiences. I am a AAA member, and in both cases I went there first, waited in line almost as long as at DMV, and got told they couldn't help me.

Which appears to be true, AAA is not allowed to verify the VIN, which is a requirement for cars not already in the DMV computer system. And anything that hasn't been either registered or PNO in the state within the past 4 years (I think it was) gets deleted from the computer.

 

[UmmYeahOk]

Im in TX, so depending on how many Californian have moved here within the last 12 months, our rules may not be the same as in CA. (we've had to start testing emissions thanks to you guys)

Anyway. From a government standpoint, yes. You need to immediately register the car upon purchase. Why? Because each year you dont, they lose money. And by not registering it, its considered a "junked vehicle" even if you are CURRENTLY working on it. That money is used for lots of things such as road maintenance and other DOT business. Also, depending on the state (thankfully they dont do this) they are missing out on other tax revenue. Another reason is to prevent criminal confusion. Typically a seller should do this, but buyer is also responsible. Say the car runs a bunch of red lights camera, or other illegal activity. Tickets, and other penalties are then issued to the last registered address

Now comes the scary part. My very first car was sold in 1998. It was a parts car, guy wanted the engine. Apparently it exchanged hands again, repaired (rather poorly) then left abandoned for several years. The person wanted to sell it, but I guess the title got lost, as they could never contact the guy. With the help of an interested buyer, in 2006, I soon learned the location of the car. Filed for a lost title, and hauled that sucker home. So unless you have proof of ownership, without registering it or at least get a new title, you risk having a previous owner try to take it from you. (and yes, my keys still worked)

Now then, I tried to get my non runner registered. Typically this shouldn't be an issue. I had all my paperwork. They refused to register me! Because my car had NEVER been registered or inspected in the state of TX, I must have it inspected first (for a fee, they'll issue you a temp tag just to drive it to the station) This was a bummer for me because 1) the next week I got a "junked vehicle" notice from the city, and 2) they changed the law about year of manufacture plates. I need the car registered before 2011 to be grandfathered in.

Oh, and Ive had my request for a new title rejected too. Reason? Car was purchased in 2009, and it had been over a year since then, but they forgot to charge me $7 for the 2010 time lapse. And no, they wouldnt let me mail a check. I had to go back.

Ive gone to 2 different DMVs, and none of them know what theyre doing. So make sure you do.

Plus I heard about how many people were charged $300 for any out of state car brought in, as a penalty on top of any smog or registration fees. But that fee has been rescinded. There was a huge class action suit against the state of CA because it was unconstitutional. They dont know what theyre doing, no wonder theyre in so much debt.

 

[mrv8q]

Which appears to be true, AAA is not allowed to verify the VIN, which is a requirement for cars not already in the DMV computer system. And anything that hasn't been either registered or PNO in the state within the past 4 years (I think it was) gets deleted from the computer.

In my case, AAA was helpful in showing me the forms I needed; It helped to have a CA peace officer friend to sign the paperwork. I, too, wanted to keep my CA black plates. Perhaps having the plates and a lot of the old registration forms made it simpler to keep them. ISTR it wasn't a big deal for the DMV to process the old plates.

Good luck w/ the DMV!

 

[cheseroo]

Which appears to be true, AAA is not allowed to verify the VIN, which is a requirement for cars not already in the DMV computer system. And anything that hasn't been either registered or PNO in the state within the past 4 years (I think it was) gets deleted from the computer.

Not sure why your experience was different but the Tustin AAA verified the VIN on the 250 and did the entire walk in the door with a Bill of Sale walk out with registration process within 30 minutes. Last I checked it took 10 years for CA cars to drop out of their system. Any activity/inquiries during that time restarted the clock. I obtained a turbo 745i that owed thousands in back fees and was advised that my DMV inquiry extended the time before it would fall out of the system. I sold the thing.

I have found that if you time your visit properly, you can get in/out of the DMV rather quickly. There seems to be a lull that lasts 45 minutes or so that occurs about 45 minutes after they open. It seems to take them about that long to clear out the initial crush that is waiting outside for the office to open. Wednesday seems to be a good day. I've found this system to be faster than the silly appointment process. If you need a VIN verified, take a driving test or anything that involves a DMV civil servant to walk out the side door, bring a novel.

 

[TR3driver]

Plus I heard about how many people were charged $300 for any out of state car brought in, as a penalty on top of any smog or registration fees.

Actually, it was a smog fee. They just charged more for cars not built to CA smog standards; which of course applied primarily to cars coming in from out of state :laugh: But that ended some 30 years ago.

They dont know what theyre doing, no wonder theyre in so much debt.

Yeah, and Texas is doing SO much better.
https://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/1024dntexbudgetmess.274b11d.html

Last I checked it took 10 years for CA cars to drop out of their system.

I was curious, so I looked it up. You're right about any activity resetting the clock, but it says 4 years:
https://www.dmv.ca.gov/faq/genfaq.htm

Two things I like to do when dealing with the DMV are to always carry something to read (or even a crossword puzzle), and arrive just a few minutes before they lock the doors for the evening. For some reason, once the doors are locked, it's really amazing how much faster things move!

 

[UmmYeahOk]

Plus I heard about how many people were charged $300 for any out of state car brought in, as a penalty on top of any smog or registration fees.

Actually, it was a smog fee. They just charged more for cars not built to CA smog standards; which of course applied primarily to cars coming in from out of state :laugh: But that ended some 30 years ago.

Well, it was some old dude that told me about it. He told me how hed tell others how they cant do that, its unconstitutional, and refuse to pay. But seriously, even if you were the type of person whod start up such a huge lawsuit, you would still pay up simply so you could still drive your car. I mean it takes years for that type of correction to take effect.

His wife supposedly owned a spitfire, which is one of the reasons why he likes to talk to to us when he walks his dog. But he made her get rid of it because the floor was rotting out. I made sure to show him mine and explain how easily it is to fix such a thing. Then again, their daughter owns a mustang like mine, same vintage, and they talk about how crappy it is too. Then again, its a 17 yo car. Mine probably has been repainted more times than her oils been changed.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]

They dont know what theyre doing, no wonder theyre in so much debt.

Yeah, and Texas is doing SO much better.
https://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/1024dntexbudgetmess.274b11d.html[/QUOTE]

Every state has some sort of debt if you search google for it. Youre state however has to pay for all the octomoms out there. I even heard that despite all the debt CA has, they were seriously thinking about issuing every public student a laptop!!! CA has the most foreclosures, and who can blame them, its just so expensive to live there. Thats probably why so many CA citizens and businesses move to TX. Its quite sad to think about, but I bet my town has more californians, than texans!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]

Last I checked it took 10 years for CA cars to drop out of their system.

I was curious, so I looked it up. You're right about any activity resetting the clock, but it says 4 years:
https://www.dmv.ca.gov/faq/genfaq.htm

Two things I like to do when dealing with the DMV are to always carry something to read (or even a crossword puzzle), and arrive just a few minutes before they lock the doors for the evening. For some reason, once the doors are locked, it's really amazing how much faster things move![/QUOTE]

I found the magic hour. You see, my DMV apparently is opened 8.30-4.30. At least tuesday theyve decided to stay till 6 to allow people to go after work. Well since most people dont even arrive in town until 6pm, they'll hafta do it in the morning. So 8-9, theyre going to be swamped. Even then, they are going to be late for work. Then you got the locals who found a way to go during their lunch hour. So about 10.30-11am, youve got the morning rush leaving and lunch rush about to arrive. I once arrived at 3, which took FOREVER, but the line was short. The time I had to go back and pay $7, I showd up at 4pm. Not a soul!!! I had no idea they closed so early! I didnt have to wait at all. Though I still got the same clerk who screwed up last time. Thats why I started to go to different location.