13" Wheels - Here's why you need to order 14" Wheels

[Jim_Gruber]

Guys here is my dilemma, and if there is ever a reason for you to consider 14" Wheels instead of 13" Wheels well the picture tells the story. I replaced the Tie Rod Ends on Bugsy IV with new Tie Rod ends purchased from M___. Those Tie Rod ends are slightly longer and have a much longer bolt for the Steering arm that OEM Equipment. As you can see from picture, Tie Rod Ends make contact with the Stud from the Tie Rod Ends. So is anyone aware of a "better fitting" Tie Rod End that I can use on Bugsy IV. One that provides a smidgen more clearance and a bolt a few threads shorter. Yes I can take a grinding when the bolt and probably even to the Metal Nylock with a Nylon Inset but I am concerned that the Nylon Insert will melt from the heat of grinding on the bolt. In addition I would need to grind on the nut itself to gain some additional clearance.


So I have not purchased tires yet. I was hoping to use 175/60/13 tires. I order to gain addition clearance I could opt top go with wheel spacer plate with longer wheel studs to move the tire slightly out and gain some clearance. However using spacers may cause tire selection to run on the outer fender well. I need some help guys.

1) Different Tie Rod Ends and a shorter bolt would help - Any known sources anyone can recommend.
2) Spacers, how big 1/4", 1/2 " thoughts, and what does that do with tires rubbing on fender wells on the outside.
3) Longer Wheel Studs, IIRC Winners Circle sells both longer Wheel Studs as well as spacer plates.
4) can I run 175/60/13 tires if I need to add a wheel spacer on the front or should I go to a taller but narrower 175/70/13 Tire.

In Hindsight - 14" rims would have solved this issue. These are 13" Rims with 20 Offset which is the recommended wheel for a Spridget.

I will bow to the wisdom of the Forum. Suggestions gentleman?
View attachment 47508

 

[Jim_Gruber]

In the thumbnail sketch, Not sure wheel was even fully seated. It's really close just with the Steering Arm. Much less when the Tie Rod bolt comes into play.

 

[BlueMax]

Jim you can place spacers behind steering arms. Use washers to determine the thickness you need, then make them out of round aluminum stock, I ended up with around 5/8". Then purchase some grade 8 bolts to fit appropriately because, two will be different lengths.

 

[Trevor Jessie]

Jim most people shorten the TRE bolt (I'm basing my assumption on cars I've seen at shows and comments on forums). Then you can use a thin nyloc (usually need to order from somewhere like mcmaster.com ).

I suppose moving the steering arm in would work as well, but I do not see the need in upsetting the steering geometry.

 

[Jim_Gruber]

If you change the position for the steering arm bolt is it going to still line up with the steering rack? Rack is fixed length as well as Tie Rod End bolt spacing. If spacers were added not sure things would line up. Hmmmm, change Tie Rod end length to accommodate, turn in Tie Rod end.

 

[Trevor Jessie]

It affects the bump steer. I would do it the simple way. cut the stud use a thin nyloc.

 

[Boink]

Seems to me they are always tight (though maybe yours is closer). The bolt is usually ground down. Here's mine...

 

[matmire]

Jim,

I believe the problem could be that you have ATA (bugeye) steering arms on you disc axles. I had the some fitment problems on my car. I bought a set of the later BTA 648/BTA 649 steering arms, and everything fit beautifully. That said, I am running stock rims. Just wanted to throw that out there as a possibility.

 

[bugedd]

For what its worth, dilemma with 14" wheels is lack of tire selection. Although I love my 14's, tire selection is slim, and its just going to get worse. May switch to 13's one day due to this. The 13's I had on my other car required nylock nuts and ground down threads, then I had clearance.

 

[Gerard]

Jim, I seem to remember from your earlier post, tat you are using the drum brake Bugeye steering arms, not the BTA648/649 arms. I think that is exacerbating your problem. The latter is what you should be using. Also, I don't believe all alloy wheels have the same ID on the rim, so that might be contributing as well.

 

[Jim_Gruber]

I'll check which steering arms I used tonight. I have both sets. Thanks Team��

 

[Jim_Gruber]

Ok I confirmed the steering arms on there are BE Steering arms. It appears there is a minor difference in dimensions of the arms. Look fir a full report later tonight. Dinner first to feed my brain. It rates a Team to solve these issues. Thanks guys.

 

[Jim_Gruber]

OK Team,

Here is the definitive answer. NTA48s/49S definitely provide more clearance than BE Steering arms. It is very little but enough to make a difference. I did not crank down the Metal Locknut I still have a bit to go before interfesnece issues commence. With the BE Steering arms the Tie Rod End Nut scraped and touched. Ouch on my new wheels. Rack is not bolted down as I need to replace LS Brake Line and then reinstall radiator. Thanks Team I feel better.View attachment 47524

 

[Jim_Gruber]

Here is a little clearer picture. Nut is not folly tightened but It I use Metal Locking nuts I still may need to trim the stud but not the arm or the bolt. And depending on how these align I may be adjusting in or out and they could change things as well. View attachment 47527

 

[gfholl]

I wonder if a spacer like blueMax mentioned but smaller (1/8" or so) would also help? Also remember to have your wheel weight placed so they don't interfere when you get your tires mounted.

 

[matmire]

It's looking better! Also, make sure that they are on the correct side. 648 on the Right and 649 on the Left. It looks like you have it correct, but it's hard to tell in the photo.

p.s. I assume you mean't BTA 648S/649S, not NTA 48S/49S (I've never heard of that part number).

 

[Jim_Gruber]

Everything is back together and Voila, no rubbing or touching, no grinding is needed. Used Steering Arms off of the '71 Midget that provided the Spindles. And it worked. Now clearance isn't a lot but it does not touch or rub and wheels spin freely. Performed an alignment with wheels off of the ground and without tires on. I used a straight edge up against the outer rocker running across both edges of the new wheels. I adjusted Tie Rod Ends until I was straight on both side and so I had the straight edge touching the outer rocked on both sides as well as both edges of the rim on both sides. no it's not perfect but I'm at least in the ball park for a start on alignment. With OEM Tire Rods the magic measurement used to be 15 1/2 threads showing to the Big Nut. Now with the new Tie Rod Ends coming from MOSS that new Magic number is closer to 5 threads showing after the Big Nut is tight.

I also ran into an issue with the SS Brake Lines I bought from a vendor attending our local LBC Show Every year with OEM and MOSS Brand New Brake Line Banjo Bolt not fitting with these SS Brake Lines. The OEM and MOSS Bolt has a shoulder on it that would not allow it to seat properly. View attachment 47657I'm pretty sure the bolt is not supposed to sit proud of the brake line. Note sent to vendor and awaiting a response from him. Hardware from the Big Box Auto Parts places is too long to fit. this needs a 3/8" x 24 about 3/4" long. It's got to be the correct fit otherwise the hole for bake fluid to run through will not line up. Anyone run into this.

 

[Jim_Gruber]

OK I take it back about the vendor. I found one Brake Banjo bolt in a little plastic bag on the garage along with two copper washed and it fit correctly. Not to turn the garage upside down and see if there is another Banjo Bolt in the garage. Oh to have more room in my garage to store parts and pieces properly. it must be there now to find the little bastard.

 

[Jim_Gruber]

Now WTH did the most important bolt, the one that connect the steering column to the rack get to. I was on top of my dresser alongside the new locking nut. @$$#%$@$%^@$. That is not a bolt I want to source from local hardware store. And of course it is NLA. Time to substitute with a Grade 8 Bolt and new Metal Nylock. So after taking everything apart and reassembling I need one Banjo Bolt and the locking bolt and nut and washer that holds on the steering column. Actually not all that bad. Still to install, sway bar, radiator and hoses. One of those I know is a bastard to get installed. I'll wait on coolant just in case I need to pull apart, Need to peen over locking tabs on caliper and steering arms and do some black paint touch up. A few hours and then to move on to the Gerard Resleeved as 3/4
Master Cylinder Install. IIRC that one will entail standing on my head with the seat out to get to all the nuts that hold the pedal box in place. All part of the fun. But almost ready for the front BE Wheels to go back on Bugsy. Major Progress today, Steering Rack installed, challenging to get one of the steering arms to connect to the Rack but finally got it figured out, LF Brake line replumbed, a 3 hour job this AM, Calipers Mounted, Calipers off three times as I figured out LF Wheel Bearing was in backwards. Zero movement in either hub, no rocking anymore.

Radiator and Steering Column will be addressed tomorrow. I put in a 10 hour day on Bugsy. Tired but happy with progress. Rebuild of the front suspension, plus converting to disc brakes is one of the most expensive and time consuming tasks you can do to your BE or Spridget, but it is so worth it when you are done. Rear End drop and rebuild is on tap and coming up.

 

[matmire]

...And of course it is NLA.

I'm not sure why US Moss doesn't carry them, but they are available at Moss UK and AH spares. I got mine there and combined it with other needed parts to make the shipping worth while. Exchange rates are definitely in your favor at the moment.