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kind of in the same line here-I'm getting close to restoring a tr6 i've had since 75. I was looking at it last night, there is no rust(visible), original paint is great, garaged all its life, just has been sitting for 20 years. No mechanical problems when parked. I, like you guys, love these cars, I read this this forum daily in hopes I'll soon be there with you. But any way, as of right now I'm looking at this restoration as an investment. I have no idea of what it will cost to get it running, I'm guessing the engine will have to be rebuilt which would be the most expensive item. Other than that just going through all the systems. I'd like to know of possible values if this restoration is done right, which will help me justify time and money, which i have neither, but I think most jobs, other than the engine, will not require huge amounts of cash. I want to do this right, as far as my situation goes I think I could come out ahead.
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Why $$$ restore ???
- Thread starter Bob Claffie
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T
Tinster
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I still say buy a ragged out out car that runs.
These guys are having a blast in their $700 Triumph.
They drove that rust bucket more miles in one day
than I drove my "almost totally restored to showroom condition)
TR6 in the prior 12 months.
Notice the silver Jeep Wrangler in the background?
That's my custom tarpon Jeep.
That's because my TR6 had been on jackstands being
repaired for 8 more months. (when the photo was take)
Buy a rag and have fun!! I wish I had.
d
These guys are having a blast in their $700 Triumph.
They drove that rust bucket more miles in one day
than I drove my "almost totally restored to showroom condition)
TR6 in the prior 12 months.
Notice the silver Jeep Wrangler in the background?
That's my custom tarpon Jeep.
That's because my TR6 had been on jackstands being
repaired for 8 more months. (when the photo was take)
Buy a rag and have fun!! I wish I had.
d
TR4nut
Yoda
Offline
poolboy said:TR4nut said:That's one thing that we all have in common; is that what you're saying, Randy ?
Yeah, that is pretty much what I'm saying - as Paul points out, we may be seeing some very nice cars available at lower prices - if the plan is to get a great driver, go for it. In my case, I just bought some bargain basement TR3As at very low initial cost, but I want to get into the restoration part more (and boy have I done that!). Either way though, I find in my case I spend a lot of money, but it comes down to the fact that I'm having fun with the hobby.
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Partially, some of the high cost of plating and this includes all types of plating, is due to the rigid regulations that the shops have to contend with today. A lot of plating materials are considered hazardous waste. The cost of disposing of this waste is on the user. Example; The cost of disposing of one 55 gallon barrel of fuel oil contaminated dirt was $3000.00 5 years ago. Liquefied chemicals cost more depending their chemical make up. So where do these fees come from? Guess who. As they say, (blank) rolls down hill and those at the bottom get hit. Were at the bottom. Plus, the shops, and I don't just mean plating shops, who's equipment is very costly to buy and maintain, has to make a profit or go out of business. It's all relative and if we want the service, we have to pay! It's nice to know that these services are still there, thank goodness.
Brosky
Great Pumpkin
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That is true to a degree. The old adage that you get what you pay for will still hold true, even more so in tougher times.
There are good body restoration & paint shops that will work between $40 to $60 per hour for first class restoration work. Using a universal shop that did fender flips and color coats of rubber bumper repairs to do legitimate restoration my not end up yielding the final results that you desire.
Why so high a labor rate? Workers comp, insurance, hazardous waste compliance, clean air issues, very high consumable supply costs, limits on the skilled labor pool and on and on. Do you want an apprentice working on your labor of love, getting it ready for the final paint work? What's on top will only look as good as what's done underneath. The same applies to the plating industry.
Chrome plating, if done properly, will be a tedious and labor intensive process from the chrome removal (blasting), to repairing and rust or damage, to applying the copper, then polishing, then the nickel, and polishing again and finally the chrome. Just the bubble and paper costs for packaging when done has gone up nearly 30% over the last two years. Hazardous waste removal and regulatory compliance costs of these shops is astronomical and with the new administration going in, don't look for any relaxation of environmental laws, no matter what the economy does. Waxmann has made that clear already.
How many new chrome plating and body shops has anyone seen open up in the last ten years and how many have closed? That will give you part of the answer as well.
Yes, there are much cheaper ways to get chrome on a bumper, but how long will it be there?
I agree that the supply of chrome or body restoration shops and the demand will dictate price, but I don't look for any of these prices to begin to tumble dramatically anytime soon. The good shops will stay busy, the mediocre will take on other work to survive and the bad will just fade away. Along with any of the good ones who may get sick of the regulatory and labor issues and just say to he$$ with it and close.
At least that's the way that I see it here in New England for the next few years. Other areas may have different results to the economic situation.
There are good body restoration & paint shops that will work between $40 to $60 per hour for first class restoration work. Using a universal shop that did fender flips and color coats of rubber bumper repairs to do legitimate restoration my not end up yielding the final results that you desire.
Why so high a labor rate? Workers comp, insurance, hazardous waste compliance, clean air issues, very high consumable supply costs, limits on the skilled labor pool and on and on. Do you want an apprentice working on your labor of love, getting it ready for the final paint work? What's on top will only look as good as what's done underneath. The same applies to the plating industry.
Chrome plating, if done properly, will be a tedious and labor intensive process from the chrome removal (blasting), to repairing and rust or damage, to applying the copper, then polishing, then the nickel, and polishing again and finally the chrome. Just the bubble and paper costs for packaging when done has gone up nearly 30% over the last two years. Hazardous waste removal and regulatory compliance costs of these shops is astronomical and with the new administration going in, don't look for any relaxation of environmental laws, no matter what the economy does. Waxmann has made that clear already.
How many new chrome plating and body shops has anyone seen open up in the last ten years and how many have closed? That will give you part of the answer as well.
Yes, there are much cheaper ways to get chrome on a bumper, but how long will it be there?
I agree that the supply of chrome or body restoration shops and the demand will dictate price, but I don't look for any of these prices to begin to tumble dramatically anytime soon. The good shops will stay busy, the mediocre will take on other work to survive and the bad will just fade away. Along with any of the good ones who may get sick of the regulatory and labor issues and just say to he$$ with it and close.
At least that's the way that I see it here in New England for the next few years. Other areas may have different results to the economic situation.
tomshobby
Yoda
Offline
I think the biggest challenge when restoring a car is to resist the "personalized" touches that might not appeal to the person that would otherwise spend top dollar. It seems that cars restored to original and with original-to-the-car drive line components have the best chance at the big bucks. Wrong paint, mods, and other personalizations seem to lower the value unless done in an exceptional way and the right person shows up.
Most of us are making improvements to make our cars more drivable. We may not be decreasing the value and may actually be increasing the value some, but I believe we are limiting the possible top value.
In time the original correct cars will become rare enough that they will routinely bring some outrageous prices. A few highly modded examples that are done with extreme quality will also bring good money. The rest, well they will be the rest.
I freely admit to being in the group that makes their car more drivable. Yes, I do make cosmetic improvements too. My goal is to have a drivable car that I can trust. And I work on my motto, drive the wheels off and let the next guy have the pictures!
Most of us are making improvements to make our cars more drivable. We may not be decreasing the value and may actually be increasing the value some, but I believe we are limiting the possible top value.
In time the original correct cars will become rare enough that they will routinely bring some outrageous prices. A few highly modded examples that are done with extreme quality will also bring good money. The rest, well they will be the rest.
I freely admit to being in the group that makes their car more drivable. Yes, I do make cosmetic improvements too. My goal is to have a drivable car that I can trust. And I work on my motto, drive the wheels off and let the next guy have the pictures!
A nicely restored TR-3A just sold in Scottsdale, Arizona at Russo and Steele for $50,000. Very nice red car, black interior. About 4 months ago I bought a complete Arizona TR-3 for $2200. Took it home and completely disassembled it. Had it sandblasted and epoxy primed. Called up a painter with a good reputation with a low overhead home shop. He looked at my nice clean rust free car and told me he could paint my car body, and body parts for $8000. plus paint. No reassembly. I thanked him and will continue to search for a better deal. I had budgeted $20,000. for the complete restoration, this will be my last as I am now getting too old and running out of time. I will continue on doing what I can, collecting parts, getting the frame completed until I get the body painted. This is my hobby and I don't plan on selling but the paint and body work cost may kill my project. Bill C. Mesa, AZ.
TR4nut
Yoda
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Bill-
Shop around. A club member is redoing his 3B here in Houston, He took a rust free, prepped tub and got it a base coat/clear coat on it for about $2K. I helped lug it back on the frame, and it looked plenty good enough to me that I'm interested in going the same route. Even if that was a one time lucky occurrence, I do know other shops that top out at about $5K.
Randy
Shop around. A club member is redoing his 3B here in Houston, He took a rust free, prepped tub and got it a base coat/clear coat on it for about $2K. I helped lug it back on the frame, and it looked plenty good enough to me that I'm interested in going the same route. Even if that was a one time lucky occurrence, I do know other shops that top out at about $5K.
Randy
T
Tinster
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"There are good body restoration & paint shops that will work between $40 to $60 per hour for first class restoration work."
<span style="color: #990000">$15,000 divided by $50/hr average.
It takes 8 weeks of 40 hours each week to paint a red TR6
once again red? With no body damage and no rust and the
engine bay and trunk not included??
No wonder they charge by the hour!!
To me that is legal robbery
d</span>
<span style="color: #990000">$15,000 divided by $50/hr average.
It takes 8 weeks of 40 hours each week to paint a red TR6
once again red? With no body damage and no rust and the
engine bay and trunk not included??
No wonder they charge by the hour!!
To me that is legal robbery
d</span>
Brosky
Great Pumpkin
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Bill,
Just for the record, my complete repaint and body repairs after the accident, including the fact that EVERYTHING damaged was replaced with new parts, didn't cost much more than that amount. That price is crazy for what you have given him to work with. I also replaced every clip, screw and weatherstrip on the car when everything was removed for the repainting.
This is what I had done and that includes rechroming and repairing the front bumper to show quality. I'm very happy with the results and the shop that did the work.
https://www.74tr6.com/repainting.htm
Just for the record, my complete repaint and body repairs after the accident, including the fact that EVERYTHING damaged was replaced with new parts, didn't cost much more than that amount. That price is crazy for what you have given him to work with. I also replaced every clip, screw and weatherstrip on the car when everything was removed for the repainting.
This is what I had done and that includes rechroming and repairing the front bumper to show quality. I'm very happy with the results and the shop that did the work.
https://www.74tr6.com/repainting.htm
I've found paint estimates to be all over the map, literally. In SoCal anyway the quotes will vary based on where you the quote from. I've been quoted anywhere from $3000 to $8000 for the same job by different shops based on where they are located. Inland, Riverside and the desert areas are usually at least 25% less.
A soda blasting place on the coast wanted $4k to blast the TR6, one in Riverside was $3k, found one in the desert area for $1k.
Locally we're starting to see some prices soften due to reductions in demand. I'd definitely agree that the top quality shops are going to hold prices because they are worth it, but I'd be willing to bet that "drive" quality work will slide in price in the next 6 months. I wish it were not so, but we're much closer to the beginning than the end of the economy slowing down. (<span style="text-decoration: underline">not a political statement in any way shape or form</span> - it takes time for all of the ramifications of what happened in Q4 to manifest in the economy).
A soda blasting place on the coast wanted $4k to blast the TR6, one in Riverside was $3k, found one in the desert area for $1k.
Locally we're starting to see some prices soften due to reductions in demand. I'd definitely agree that the top quality shops are going to hold prices because they are worth it, but I'd be willing to bet that "drive" quality work will slide in price in the next 6 months. I wish it were not so, but we're much closer to the beginning than the end of the economy slowing down. (<span style="text-decoration: underline">not a political statement in any way shape or form</span> - it takes time for all of the ramifications of what happened in Q4 to manifest in the economy).
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I took a class at my local base hobby shop to learn basic (very basic) body work and painting. The class cost me about $45 for a 6 week course (twice a week as I recall). Then I painted my Spitfire myself for the cost of materials. Of course I had to rent a booth to paint in. The job came out "ok" but certainly would not have won any prizes.
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tomshobby said:
I am lucky in that I'm retired military and can access the base Hobby shop. In some areas, tech schools have similar courses (unfortunately not here). There are also DVDs you can buy to learn these things, so there are options that would work for some folks.
angelfj1
Yoda
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Brosky said:
True, but a Triumph TR, restored as original, has so little 'bright work' that this in itself should not break the bank. Most who do a total restoration and have restorable chrome, send these pieces out at the beginning of the project. Some of the best chrome shops in the country have waiting lists up to a year or more.
Even if you intend to purchase re-pro bumpers, the chrome plating is terrible. I have seen some that are not plated on the back surface but only painted. It is a good idea to send them directly to a good shop and have them triple plated. Done properly and with periodic washing and waxing, they should last the life of the car. The current re-pro bumpers have been known to show rust spots in 6 months. But YMMV.
Brosky
Great Pumpkin
Offline
The great idea of "Do it yourself shops" where you could rent a lift or a spray booth, died here in NE about ten years ago do to "legal issues and liability claims".
As far as "what is fair for a price?" there is no set number. One shops overhead can be much less than another. One may have made his money for the month and will take a "gravy" job in for a deal to the owner. Sometimes shopping a job in the 3rd week of the month can make a difference.
While the fixed costs that I outlined earlier can vary from shop to shop, they tend to be stable in the region, so that is why NE prices for chroming are higher than in the south or southwest.
The best answer is to get a written estimate with a statement of EXACTLY will be done for the dollars quoted and a WRITTEN AGREEMENT to be notified should any hidden rust or damage be found that will require any extra labor and that labor and material MUST be agreed upon in writing before the repair begins.
And what determines a trade hourly labor rate and time estimate to be fair? It's like beauty, it's in the eye of the beholder, or payer in this case. If you go to a dentist/doctor/lawyer/engineer/cabinetmaker/plumber/mason, etc. and they quotes you a price for a job and you feel it's too high, get up and leave. You are not bound to anyone, nor are they bound to you.
If I had a customer that I knew would become a (reasonable) burden to me or my staff, they got quoted a much higher price for an included an "after the fact maintenance fee" that would be required to keep them happy. Some paid it and some walked. The ones that walked were never missed and the ones that paid were always made happy. Sometimes shops are better off not taking in certain jobs due to the owner or the car itself. They may be over their heads dealing with either category before even starting the jobs. And that formula spells disaster coming down the road because some cars cannot be fixed properly for an earlier agreed upon price and some owners will NEVER be happy unless they are whining and beating the shop up about petty stuff (that usually was never part of the original job) and will ultimately drive you crazy down the road.
Just my experienced opinion.
As far as "what is fair for a price?" there is no set number. One shops overhead can be much less than another. One may have made his money for the month and will take a "gravy" job in for a deal to the owner. Sometimes shopping a job in the 3rd week of the month can make a difference.
While the fixed costs that I outlined earlier can vary from shop to shop, they tend to be stable in the region, so that is why NE prices for chroming are higher than in the south or southwest.
The best answer is to get a written estimate with a statement of EXACTLY will be done for the dollars quoted and a WRITTEN AGREEMENT to be notified should any hidden rust or damage be found that will require any extra labor and that labor and material MUST be agreed upon in writing before the repair begins.
And what determines a trade hourly labor rate and time estimate to be fair? It's like beauty, it's in the eye of the beholder, or payer in this case. If you go to a dentist/doctor/lawyer/engineer/cabinetmaker/plumber/mason, etc. and they quotes you a price for a job and you feel it's too high, get up and leave. You are not bound to anyone, nor are they bound to you.
If I had a customer that I knew would become a (reasonable) burden to me or my staff, they got quoted a much higher price for an included an "after the fact maintenance fee" that would be required to keep them happy. Some paid it and some walked. The ones that walked were never missed and the ones that paid were always made happy. Sometimes shops are better off not taking in certain jobs due to the owner or the car itself. They may be over their heads dealing with either category before even starting the jobs. And that formula spells disaster coming down the road because some cars cannot be fixed properly for an earlier agreed upon price and some owners will NEVER be happy unless they are whining and beating the shop up about petty stuff (that usually was never part of the original job) and will ultimately drive you crazy down the road.
Just my experienced opinion.
19_again
Jedi Warrior
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In my case I paid too much for the B on ebay, sunk another couple of grand into wheels, tires, brakes, electrical and now it's only lacking the new paint job that will come in time. We drive it every weekend in the summer and I'm perfectly happy with it. the only thing of any consequence left is 2nd synchro and that is for later this winter. As for the Gt, the intent was to strip it down to frame and put it back together again, but not a "true" restoration rather a refreshing. My original intent was the rebuild to sell, presumably at close to or above the cost. Now I'm going to rebuild it for me, and when I'm tired of it or wiser than today, sell it. The GT body is rust free. engine's fine, tranny was rebuilt 3K miles ago. So I'm back to brakes, all new liquid lines, new harness due to some worrisome friction wearing, It won't be like Paul's but in a few years will be a head turner. A for the fun part, Tom I can't tell you how many times I've done a little jig in the garage when the hunch I had about a part paid off, or the nut finally came loose without snapping the stud or the wheels spin free after my first ever bearings change.
I'm also fortunate in that my brother is in the restoration business, so advice and eventual paint and body work is a materials only expense.
And never to be ignored or underestimated is the help this forum offers to us all, this wonderful new hobby of mine wouldn't even be happening if not for Basil's foresight and the sharing of knowledge you all share.
Mike
I'm also fortunate in that my brother is in the restoration business, so advice and eventual paint and body work is a materials only expense.
And never to be ignored or underestimated is the help this forum offers to us all, this wonderful new hobby of mine wouldn't even be happening if not for Basil's foresight and the sharing of knowledge you all share.
Mike
Brosky
Great Pumpkin
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Mike,
I wish that my brother owned a body shop, although the owner of the shop that I deal with treats me like a brother. Your car will look great because I'm sure that your brother make see that it does after all of your other work.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]And never to be ignored or underestimated is the help this forum offers to us all, this wonderful new hobby of mine wouldn't even be happening if not for <span style="color: #009900">Basil's foresight</span> and the sharing of knowledge you all share.[/QUOTE]
No one can argue that point. Well said.
I wish that my brother owned a body shop, although the owner of the shop that I deal with treats me like a brother. Your car will look great because I'm sure that your brother make see that it does after all of your other work.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]And never to be ignored or underestimated is the help this forum offers to us all, this wonderful new hobby of mine wouldn't even be happening if not for <span style="color: #009900">Basil's foresight</span> and the sharing of knowledge you all share.[/QUOTE]
No one can argue that point. Well said.