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Where did I go wrong?

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I too found the market deeply discounts modified Healeys, as did I when I purchased mine as a project with Datsun running gear. Period upgrades, fine but when you swap out drive trains, add flairs, sound systems, unpopular paint colors/schemes, it significantly reduces the number of potential buyers and price. Not to be critical, but to share experience, so that it helps you understand "where did I go wrong".
I still think it is a great car and you can maximize your sales price by doing as I suggested on a prior post and marketing it well.

today's race car BAT
 
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I've been following this thread with some interest as I have gone the rally car route on my BN4. It has been argued that originality is what most buyers want, but the author of https://www.mossmotoring.com/a-bright-road-ahead/ points out that modifying LBCs has been part of the hobby since they were new and appeals to the potenital younger owners. That's a matter of the owner's taste, and that means by definition that not everyone agrees. My feeling is that if your car wins it's class at shows where judging is by popularity, then most people would agree with your modifications. Mine usually does well, but at a British car show last year my class was won by a early 3000 with a nicely-done Ford V8. So being heavily modified doesn't necessarily mean no one will buy the car. I do think, that barring a historically-significant car, a concours winning original car will bring more money as most people recognize the extreme effort that goes into a gold standard car.

I agree with much of what has been said here:
  • The description is too long.
  • The history of where the car's been in its life is distracting and unimportant. Racing history should be left out unless it's historically important, e.g. "won 3 of 5 races at Watkins Glen while driven by famous driver ___", "won SCCA championship 3 years in a row", etc.
  • Drop the term "bling".
  • Likening the hood louvers to those on a 100M makes it sound like you are claiming something it's not. Louvers are fine, just not the description.
  • I think the same goes with the 727 URX registration sticker. Even though my BN4 sort-of pays homage to UOC 741, I wouldn't put that registration sticker on it.
  • I think the white coves don't go with the flairs and rally vents. They should be more subtle.
  • Remove the back supports from the seats and take a new interior photo. Makes me think the seats are uncomfortable.
  • Have a photo of the dash.
FWIW, those are my thoughts.
 
Is there any any proven correlation between concours popularity and general saleability (note: this is not a dig, nor a snide comment--I am genuinely interested)? My guess is that just because a car gets a lot of thumbs up, and maybe a "people's choice" award, at a concours doesn't mean it will sell at a lavish price. Conversely, stock factory 100Ms aren't necessarily people's choice show-winners, but there's no arguing their value and saleability (currently, at least). Also, while I can appreciate the effort and craftsmanship--and fancy paint--that goes into some hot rods and 'restomods,' they have no ownership appeal to me whatsoever (if someone gave me one I'd sell it for whatever I could get and buy a nice, original/stock Bugeye).

There's several 'we hot rod a car and sell it at auction' reality shows on TV these days. More often than not, the sellers buy and modify older, stock cars, rod them up and apply extravagant paint jobs. Much self-congratulation and admiration for their work follows, then the cars are--often, not always--complete duds at auction. It seems to me the joy should come in doing the work--if you tart up a car simply to turn a profit it loses some of the mystique.
 
Well, listening to you Healey gents, I thought I'd throw in a couple cents worth. I've been restoring cars of all types off and on for 40 years. We must remember, a car is an extension of someones personality. We don't always agree with the owners choice in customizing a car, but that's his or her's decision to make. Personality's differ and most people don't think the same. I like to keep a car as original as possible, but I don't like trailer queens either, I like drivers. Also we must remember that a lot of these cars were redone when the junk yards were full of them. I know of a fellow who pulled a car out of a pile of junkers, restored it to near perfect condition at an enormous expense and after saving it from the crusher, was later criticized for having the wrong hub caps and radiator cap on it. Strange but sure. Bottom line, I think this gentleman's Healey is beautiful! I also think it should be in the $50,000 + range, but of course that's just one opinion amongst many. PJ
 
Bob_Spidell said:
Is there any any proven correlation between concours popularity and general saleability (note: this is not a dig, nor a snide comment--I am genuinely interested)? My guess is that just because a car gets a lot of thumbs up, and maybe a "people's choice" award, at a concours doesn't mean it will sell at a lavish price.
Click to expand...

The only real hard data we have on sale prices is from auctions. No one is compiling data from private sales, mostly because it just isn't available, and the strong preference among auction buyers is quite clear: They like originality. Even small deviations from originality tend of significantly reduce the sale price.

There is a reason that one of the very most successful sellers of Healeys at auctions, Kurt Tanner, gets the highest prices for his cars: They are restored to original appearance and promoted as restored to Concours Gold Standards (although some of us really wish he wouldn't say that since his cars have not been submitted for concours judging). You will not see fender flares or Chevy engines in his cars. About the only way his cars differ from strict originality is in color choice, and even that is rare, and he has been very conservative and thoughtful in that regard and used only very tasteful non-original colors (such as Aston Martin Green - a light, metallic green that you could describe as a green version of Healey Blue, and it works fabulously well on BJ8s).

When it comes to a vote - voting with your wallet, that is - the result is clear: Originality wins, hands down.
 
Bob_Spidell said:
Is there any any proven correlation between concours popularity and general saleability (note: this is not a dig, nor a snide comment--I am genuinely interested)? My guess is that just because a car gets a lot of thumbs up, and maybe a "people's choice" award, at a concours doesn't mean it will sell at a lavish price. ...
Click to expand...
Reid is correct that there is no hard data.

Perhaps I wasn't clear. My point is not that a modified car will bring more than a well restored original car, I meant that among modified cars, more thumbs up would likely bring a better price than few thumbs up.

The other point that I wonder about in light of the Moss article, is that will originality continue to be the overriding factor in price as those of us “of a certain age” move on? Will the younger potential owners also value originality? At this point in time, those of us “of a certain age” generally have more dollars to spend on hobbies than the next generation of owners. For some insight, I looked at
https://content.yudu.com/A1zd5j/201...rrerUrl=http://www.hagerty.com/valuationtools. Generally, the cars highlighted at auction seemed to be original cars with a couple of exceptions: a '65 Ford Ranchero (the one based on the Falcon) fully customized for $200,000 (p9), and a '66 Pontiac GTO custom convertible for $107,800 (p24).
 
John Turney said:
I've been following this thread with some interest as I have gone the rally car route on my BN4. It has been argued that originality is what most buyers want, but the author of https://www.mossmotoring.com/a-bright-road-ahead/ points out that modifying LBCs has been part of the hobby since they were new and appeals to the potenital younger owners. That's a matter of the owner's taste, and that means by definition that not everyone agrees. My feeling is that if your car wins it's class at shows where judging is by popularity, then most people would agree with your modifications. Mine usually does well, but at a British car show last year my class was won by a early 3000 with a nicely-done Ford V8. So being heavily modified doesn't necessarily mean no one will buy the car. I do think, that barring a historically-significant car, a concours winning original car will bring more money as most people recognize the extreme effort that goes into a gold standard car.

I agree with much of what has been said here:
  • The description is too long.
  • The history of where the car's been in its life is distracting and unimportant. Racing history should be left out unless it's historically important, e.g. "won 3 of 5 races at Watkins Glen while driven by famous driver ___", "won SCCA championship 3 years in a row", etc.
  • Drop the term "bling".
  • Likening the hood louvers to those on a 100M makes it sound like you are claiming something it's not. Louvers are fine, just not the description.
  • I think the same goes with the 727 URX registration sticker. Even though my BN4 sort-of pays homage to UOC 741, I wouldn't put that registration sticker on it.
  • I think the white coves don't go with the flairs and rally vents. They should be more subtle.
  • Remove the back supports from the seats and take a new interior photo. Makes me think the seats are uncomfortable.
  • Have a photo of the dash.
FWIW, those are my thoughts.
Click to expand...


Thanks John. Your advice is appreciated - really.
Couple of points:
- My fake registration sticker is 727 URX not URX 727. My hope was to make the connection to Pat Moss and the European rally scene without seeming to suggest this was a replica of her car. I may remove it based on your comment.
- I'm sure you are aware that UOC 741 was one of the few rally cars (maybe the only) that did actually have white coves.
Cheers
Jim
 
Jim_Newman said:
Thanks John. Your advice is appreciated - really.
Couple of points:
- My fake registration sticker is 727 URX not URX 727. My hope was to make the connection to Pat Moss and the European rally scene without seeming to suggest this was a replica of her car. I may remove it based on your comment.
- I'm sure you are aware that UOC 741 was one of the few rally cars (maybe the only) that did actually have white coves.
Cheers
Jim
Click to expand...

Whoops. My bad. Seems the coves were NOT white but a light green. (Black and white photos can be misleading). Apologies for the mistake.
 
Yes, it was Pacific Green over Florida Green. IMO FWIW (probably not much), an awful combination, but it must have been appropriate for the time as it started life as a press demo car. I prefer one or the other, but not together. It was the only factory rally car that was green. UOC 741 is now the ubiquitous red with white top, but it allowed me to paint my BN4 green.
 
Have been a Healey and Jag guy for over thirty years. Sold and bought on ebay. Agree with Reid on many issues. To add my two cents worth there were no pictures of the underneath of the car..a critical mistake..makes it look like you are hiding something.. sold an e-type 2 years ago..many GOOD pictures, phone numbers and SIMPLE facts..just the facts..no embelishing..car was bought unseen and when it was delivered he stated that "it was so much better than I expected".

Price on the car is wrong too.. Lower entree bid will spur interest. The way this add is setup one might think the reserve is 100,000 and its not worth my time to bid..

Summer is coming..when the top goes down the price goes up...make a few changes and give it another try...I think you might be surprised with the renewed interest.

Pete
 
I think it's an oversimplification to say modified cars are worth less. There are different markets for different types of cars. For instance, I have no idea who would buy one of Tanner's cars at his prices in hyped up auctions. I suspect it's just investors. Has anyone ever seen one of these buyers join their club and turn up for an event. If a car is basically normal but with non period modification such as a Toyota gearbox, or the wrong colour, then its going to fetch less than an 'original' car in similar condition. The race, rally and rally 'replica' market is a totally different thing and the cars appeal to a different group of people. The people who buy these cars don't want a standard car and vice versa. The car in question has a lot of good, period performance modifications and a hardtop. I believe the highest price will be achieved if the seller goes for this 'historic competition market and markets the car accordingly. That includes painting the coves red which would make a huge difference. As I mentioned in a post that disappeared, cars like this will fetch more than standard cars BUT, the market is much smaller and they can take time to sell.
 
Derek,

I think what you're seeing is how these cars are viewed in Europe. What Reid and Bob see is how these cars are viewed in the US.
 
John Turney said:
Derek,

I think what you're seeing is how these cars are viewed in Europe. What Reid and Bob see is how these cars are viewed in the US.
Click to expand...


The 'these cars are viewed differently in Europe than they are in the US' view is news to me, but certainly seems plausible. What I can't wrap my head around is the implied 'you should only target market to people who like/want modified cars.' Sounds as if potential modified buyers don't know about or pay attention to eBay. Seems to me you'd want to market to the broadest market possible (there may be someone who wants a modified Healey but doesn't know it yet). Do the modified aficionados only peruse certain magazines and websites, and ignore the rest of the car-trading world? They don't do inquires on "modified Austin-Healey" on their favorite search engine and follow wherever the results take them? Or, better yet, just search on "Austin-Healey" and browse?
 
You have misunderstood what I said. When I say target the market I mean that the car and the ad should be set up clearly in such a way to emphasize that this car is a high performance rally replica. At the moment, I think we all agree that the ad is confused so it isn't clear what type of car it is, or who it is marketed at. Understanding your market and targeting it accordingly is basic marketing strategy used worldwide. It is much more successful than the scattergun approach.
 
It appears I did misunderstand (am I the only one?). Now, I think you are saying the car should be packaged, presented and marketed as a 'rally replica,' although the car was originally presented as a 'rally tribute' (the only use of the word replica was in regards to the stick-on registration). I don't know that this car qualifies as a 'rally replica,' though I'm not an authority on such cars.
 
'Rally tribute' would be fine, probably better than Rally Replica anyway, as the word Replica can immediately give the wrong impression. He could in fact just call it an Austin Healey Rally car. As long as its not pretending to be a Works Car. I definitely think this is the way to go. No point in spending even more money to put it back to original spec.
 
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