Watershed electrical moment?

[71MKIV]

go back in the house and scrounge up some help,

have them hold the key in the start position while you start wiggling wires from the battery out to the starter. It's possible that either your battery or one of the cables has issues. Without standing there by the car I am running out of ideas

 

[Jim Lee]

At the risk of sounding too self assured....it HAS to be the starter. Have fully charged up 'other' battery, brand new solenoid. Turn key...fuel pump starts clicking, ignition light on, push starter...first time almost started the car. Second time ignition clicks off after a few seconds. Go to the engine and try pushing solenoid starter button...nasty click sound at starter terminal then nothing. Solenoid connections are very warm. What else could it be but a, possibly inconsistent, short in the starter? Or an armature that has gone south?

I am going to take it to the local shop and have them test it for whatever that is worth.

Stay tuned for more starting adventures.

Thanks,
Jim Lee

 

[Bremer]

The starter is grounded through/to the engine right?

Yes, the starter grounds to the engine, and the engine is grounded to the chassis by means of a metal strap that connects the frame to the engine front plate. You can find the strap on the LH side, kind of hard to see when looking down into the engine bay. Make sure the strap is there and in good condition. If it's missing, only incidental bonding completes the circuit, such as the choke cables.
This may not be the root cause for your current problem, but nevertheless important to check.

 

[Jim Lee]

The strap is definitely there and in good condition.

Went to the local auto store to see if they could test the starter but that was a non starter. The TR3 is off their charts for testing. So I got brave and put the starter in a vise and hooked it up directly to the battery. Postive to the post. Bolted the negative to one of the install holes and touched the negative battery post, with heavy gloves on. Not a click from the starter but it took a good chunk out of that negative terminal. If I had held it there much longer I probably could have made it disappear. This is not a very good picture but see if you can see the chunk it took out.

Here are some more images of the starter. I was hoping to see something burned or very wrong but it all looks good to me. I am going to my Bentley manual to see what testing I might be able to do. The solenoid was about $40 but if I am getting a new starter I really would feel better knowing this one is bad.

Enjoy. At least you get to see the inside of an original starter.

Thanks very much,
Jim Lee

 

[Rhodyspit75]

Is that starter really red or did you dust it with that chili powder? On a more serious note don't try that again. Batteries can explode and those gloves will not help the rest of you. If you had held it there any longer it very well my have exploded.
I tried to help a guy with a Jeep that had a short and the battery was burning . I didn't let him open the hood because there was a bright red spot right over the battery. Instead I shot the fire extinguisher in through a hole in the grill. The fire went out for a second then the battery exploded. After that we just watched it burn until the fire trucks got there.

 

[Jim Lee]

Are you agreeing that I have a short in the starter? If so have I just proven it in the test above? It pretty much did the same thing when I went from the battery to the lower post on the solenoid. It sparked big time at that post where I was touching and did some serious heating.

Thanks,
Jim Lee

 

[Rhodyspit75]

I believe you do. Ask around there must be a shop around that can test it for you. I doubt that any of the chains will be able to do it. We still have a couple left up here.

 

[71MKIV]

the problem is that at this point you need a growler and a megohmeter.

A growler is a magnetic frame that you sit the armature in and slowly turn it while holding a hacksaw blade over it. the short is revealed when the blade is attracted to the armature.

Before going to all the trouble make sure that the insulators for the post on the starter are there and in good shape. There should be some sort of insulators both inside and outside on that post. You don't have a pic of that.

I've blown up batteries before, to the point that the ringing in my ears is permanent. Batteries blow up when they are over charged and are making hydrogen and a spark sets off the hydrogen. When you wash your clothes you find out where each spot was.

 

[Jim Lee]

Steve,

This is exactly what I have had on the starter at the post. Have not removed a thing. Could it be that I am simply shorting to the case? Can you see an insulator on the inside but, obviously, not on the outside? Can I pick up something at the hardware store that will function as an insulator? I might have has a washer inside of that Whitworth (sp?) nut on the post but nothing that I would call an insulator.

Thanks very much,
Jim Lee

 

[TR3driver]

Definitely a problem there, Jim. There really should be two nuts, plus a fiber washer between the inner nut and the case.

The hardware store will probably have something that will act as an insulating washer, although you might have to settle for nylon instead of fiber. I'd use two, just to get the cable end farther away from the end housing. For the moment, you can get by with just one nut, but I'd suggest looking for a second one. The nylon washer(s) won't be strong enough to tighten the nut very far.

PS, I assume you realize that the housing bolts are missing in your photo. They are important too

 

[71MKIV]

:eeek:

Yes you are definitly missing parts. There should be an insulating washer underneath the nut, and another nut. At this point I can't see how it worked at all.

If there is a starter or alternator shop somewhere in your neighborhood, they should have a proper fiber washer, or a whole new brass bolt assy that has a thread size that's available now.

https://www.mcmaster.com/#hard-fiber-flat-washers/=b8853q

It needs to be made of a phenolic or bakalite material, nylon or teflon will work for a time but after while will "squish" which will make it come loose and then you are back where you started.

I know of a couple of Amish hardware stores here in PA that would have the washer, but I 've never been to CA (there's a song there I think) so I have no idea of what hardware store that has a good selection of, you know, "hardware".

 

[Jim Lee]

Thanks all. Thought I was all good now with my fiber washers between the starter cable and casing but I am not. Here is what I now have after getting two fiber washers at the hardware store:

It is now:
Case : Big fiber washer : Small fiber washer : metal washer : cable from the solenoid : Nut

I am charging up another battery. Both of these batteries are from 2008 and they are not used very much so even though this one that I am doing now tests out ok at Advance Auto I am not so sure about it. I think my next move might be to get a new battery. When the starter is turning it seems to turn without a problem. I know that I had that starter rebuilt at least once and though I am no electric guy it looked really clean and did not show any obvious signs of show stopping problems. I have also tested my switch and push button starter as far as continuity goes.

I was really hoping that the lack of an insulator between the case and the cable was the problem. It fit perfectly. How it worked at all, and how long I had it like that, is a mystery to me. I had the same depressing experience today where I turned the key on, pushed the starter, it turned a few times and then power off. Wait a while, power on.

I will keep you all posted.

Thanks very much,
Jim Lee

 

[clem]

After reading all your posts, as well as reading the topic "Electrical Lesson Again Needed"... when you put 2 and 2 together.... Well, i am just wondering if when you turn the key on, which sends power to the regulator and if the regulator is broken and therefore trying to turn the generator and fighting the starter? As a test, I would disconnect the wires going to the generator (there should be two, armature and field) and try it again. Be sure to tie off the loose wires so they don't short anything out.

I'm not saying it is even possible for this to be the problem, but the two posts had such similarities, I just thought I would point it out.

And I think at this point, you'd probably be willing to try anything. I know I would be. And this test won't cause any harm.

Good luck....