Waterless Coolant - thread from the AH forum

[Boink]

Don't know if anyone has seen this thread from the main Austin Healey forum. I sort of re-started it, and figured others might want to read it. So, I'm re-starting a thread here for us Sprigeteers, and copying the link: https://www.britishcarforum.com/bcf/showthread.php?102246-Waterless-Coolant .

My initial experience with the product (am I to not use the name of the manufacturer but only the product name?) has not been good. That written, I'm still experimenting - and the thread discusses some of the issues.

Any users of waterless coolant?

 

[Gliderman8]

I haven't read the thread yet Mark but why use the waterless coolant?
I've been using regular antifreeze since I finished the resto. I've never experienced a problem and my temp. gauge rarely goes past the first mark.

 

[Joe Schlosser]

I saw th e thread in the Big Healey section
The biggest thing is that it has about half the heat capacity of water and about 65 percent of a good Glycol water mix.
Our radiators are marginal as it is and having less heat capacity of the coolant means that the motor will run a lot hotter.
Why screw around. Glycol is cheap and with a good radiator cap wont boil unless there is a real problem and then you should not be running the motor any way.

 

[Boink]

I haven't read the thread yet Mark but why use the waterless coolant?
I've been using regular antifreeze since I finished the resto. I've never experienced a problem and my temp. gauge rarely goes past the first mark.

It's in that thread, but the short answer is that my block is rusty in a way that surprised me. When the rear freeze-plugs were replaced, we flushed some ugly stuff out (with pretty good sized flakes of rust). Spooked, I decided I'd try the waterless (and because the car sits a lot). No other reason really.

 

[Boink]

I saw th e thread in the Big Healey section
The biggest thing is that it has about half the heat capacity of water and about 65 percent of a good Glycol water mix.
Our radiators are marginal as it is and having less heat capacity of the coolant means that the motor will run a lot hotter.
Why screw around. Glycol is cheap and with a good radiator cap wont boil unless there is a real problem and then you should not be running the motor any way.

Agreed, Joe. Wish I'd not done it... but just didn't know, and there was a lot of support for the stuff.
The best argument AGAINST it (other than expense) is that if our little cars have "just acceptable" cooling systems, then the heat-transfer rate of 100% glycol would suggest a radiator that is, say, 25-50% larger (just to stay the same). I just didn't realize that the heat-absorbing capacity of propylene glycol was that low.

I'm also concerned about latent heat after shut-off too. Again, I'll bet I'm running hot (not 180 on the dial but maybe 210)... but the coolant is not (and the gauge is not reading hot). To me that's a serious issue - when the coolant temperature is significantly different than, say, the head. The stuff won't boil over, BUT maybe boiling over is a good sign of an issue!

I've not had issues like this (notably dieseling) before. I'm nearly certain I'm running hot, but the gauge won't tell me that because of the heat transfer rate). Time to pull a plug or two and have a look. [all of this is in that AH thread]

 

[HealeyRick]

My bugeye (948, 40 over with flat top pistons and 12G 295 head) was running hot and I was thinking of going with an ali radiator. Do some reading and you'll find straight water is the most efficient coolant. So I did a citric flush https://forums.vintage-mustang.com/vintage-mustang-forum/878714-citric-acid-flush.html, refilled with distilled water with DEI Radiator Relief https://www.designengineering.com//category/catalog/thermal-chemicals/radiator-relief-16oz for anti-corrosion and water pump lube. Has really worked for a lot less than Evans will cost, and I change it when the frost comes and fill with a distilled water/anti-freeze combo.

 

[Boink]

My bugeye (948, 40 over with flat top pistons and 12G 295 head) was running hot and I was thinking of going with an ali radiator. Do some reading and you'll find straight water is the most efficient coolant. So I did a citric flush https://forums.vintage-mustang.com/vintage-mustang-forum/878714-citric-acid-flush.html, refilled with distilled water with DEI Radiator Relief https://www.designengineering.com//category/catalog/thermal-chemicals/radiator-relief-16oz for anti-corrosion and water pump lube. Has really worked for a lot less than Evans will cost, and I change it when the frost comes and fill with a distilled water/anti-freeze combo.

Thanks, not a bad idea (though I'm not keen on changing coolant for each season). Certainly cheaper though.
Again, I have what I think is a very rusty block (or I believe it is)... thus my initial concern.

 

[HealeyRick]

Thanks, not a bad idea (though I'm not keen on changing coolant for each season). Certainly cheaper though.
Again, I have what I think is a very rusty block (or I believe it is)... thus my initial concern.

All you really have to do in the fall is drain half the distilled water and fill to the top with straight anti-freeze, then in the spring drain everything and go back to distilled water.

 

[Rut]

Mark,
Im considering Evans for my 1275 Bugeye and comments have been all over the place on different forums, not just LBCs. From what I understand, water is the gold standard as far as heat transfer is concerned and when you add traditional antifreeze in a 50/50 mix that ability drops, but you have both freeze and corrosion protection as well as lubrication. The common issues are that it must be changed periodically to keep its good properties and since it contains water it creates pressure and 'hot spots' in the system/engine. Those hot spots can cause the water to boil which takes away the ability of the 50/50 mix to transfer heat causing potential localized damage. Since Evans contains no water there's nothing to boil, but the engine will run hotter due to the reduction of heat transfer capability. How hot is too hot for our engines? If the gauge is halfway between N and H while running is that better or worse for our engines since there is no boiling creating hot spots? If our oil temp remains in normal range does that mean that there's no heat soak or risk of overheating due to the slightly higher operating temps? All this leads me to believe that Evans is a great product for certain applications, but possibly not in ours. I don't want to waste my money finding out, but it really looks like the benefits are there if the application is a proper one.
Rut

 

[Joe Schlosser]

Rut
Everything has a boiling point. The waterless coolant may have a high BP but it has one.
A 50/50 mix of glycol water has a heat capacity of about 0.9 at 190 F. Water being 1. I understand that the waterless coolant is 0.5. That makes a big difference in the running temperature id the size of the radiator remains the same.
Our engines are designed to run optimally at around 190F. It they run a lot hotter then the clearances change and performance suffers.
I am confused about your boiling issue due to "hot spots" If the fluid is moving then it will not take on enough heat to boil. One of the reasons Spridget racers keep the heater return line on the motor without the heater is to improve the flow of coolant around cylinder number 4. There is a possibility of a "hot spot" once the motor is shut down.
BTW, remember that the BP of straight water is about 240F with a 10 psi radiator cap. Glycol water mix is higher.

 

[Rut]

Joe,
Thanks for the comments and I really meant a much higher boiling point vs none. As I said there are so many discussions about this subject and one was specific to hot spots and the 50/50 mix boiling and compounding the problem. I even looked at the comments on big mining and OTR rigs where the cost benefit of not changing antifreeze is a huge deal. Since the optimal operating temp is 190* f due to lost performance at higher temps would a larger/more efficient radiator with a 185* or 190* thermostat and conventional 50/50 mix be the best way to go?
Thanks, Rut

 

[Boink]

Yep... discussions on various forums are ALL over the map (from lovers to haters). In the final analysis, like a lot of things, it depends on your situation and preferences. Heck, Jay Leno's mechanics are putting it in million dollar cars... and I'm sure that it might be quite useful with aluminum. However, given the heat-absorbing capacity of glycol (vs. the gold standard, water), I believe it all comes down to the size and effectiveness of one's cooling system. If one has a big cooling system (arguably oversized), then I think it might be the way to go. However, cooling systems on our LBCs isn't so good, and, therefore, I remain unconvinced of the value of this waterless coolant.

Again, I'm initially trying it because I have a rusty block interior (and maybe a seriously rusty one), so I wanted to arrest all that. I just didn't expect that I'd be running so hot. It really does make sense that the temperature gauge and the engine temperature would be different (given the heat transfer rates).
You know, there might be value in boiling over - a kind of warning to shut down. I mean, who cares if the waterless stuff boils at 375F because you're engine would be toast at that point anyway. I just don't like the idea of seeing a gauge at 180 and the head at 210. Spooks me.

 

[nomad]

I know your concern, Mark. My BE with a seriously corroded block boils far sooner than the engine in my driver MK2 that isn't corroded but has the identical cooling set up.

Just to add more fuel to the fire....wouldn't a higher operating temp of the waterless become more efficient at transferring heat as the differential between atmospheric temp and cooling system temp move farther apart? if the stuff doesn't boil the only disadvantage I can see is a loss of power and I really don't know why that exists. I have noticed it from driving a car at nearly boiling and one that is cool.

Kurt

 

[HealeyRick]

If, as you said, your block (and I presume your radiator) is really rusty you should fix that first before being concerned about what coolant you use. Take a look at the citric acid flush I linked above, it's really good for removing rust. Buy the citric acid on Amazon, much cheaper than the Mercedes stuff.

 

[Boink]

If, as you said, your block (and I presume your radiator) is really rusty you should fix that first before being concerned about what coolant you use. Take a look at the citric acid flush I linked above, it's really good for removing rust. Buy the citric acid on Amazon, much cheaper than the Mercedes stuff.

Did a pretty thorough flush (of the BLOCK but did the whole system too)... but, I guess, thought that waterless might be good for the future.

BTW, I see that Konigsegg now uses it in the their million dollar supercars (though I suspect those things have super cooling systems).

 

[Boink]

I know your concern, Mark. My BE with a seriously corroded block boils far sooner than the engine in my driver MK2 that isn't corroded but has the identical cooling set up.

Just to add more fuel to the fire....wouldn't a higher operating temp of the waterless become more efficient at transferring heat as the differential between atmospheric temp and cooling system temp move farther apart? if the stuff doesn't boil the only disadvantage I can see is a loss of power and I really don't know why that exists. I have noticed it from driving a car at nearly boiling and one that is cool.
Kurt

Good question, Kurt.
I think the jury is still out for me. I did switch from their "NPG" product to their "HP" product (which is more appropriate - and I got the replacement product for free). I plan to see if this makes any difference (since HP is less viscous and has slightly better heat transferal ability).
Still, need to verify timing, etc. is OK.

 

[Rut]

Mark,
From a corrosion inhibitor standpoint this product has really good reviews from the hot rod forums. After a good citric acid flush you may want to consider it along with a conventional 50/50 mix if the Evans doesn't work out.
Rut
https://www.no-rosion.com/norosioncoolant.htm

 

[Boink]

Excellent. Thanks, Rut. I've seen and read about this No-Rosion product too.
Given I didn't have to pay for the HP replacement product (though I did for the NPG), I'm going to give the "High Performance" waterless a few more weeks (maybe the summer) unless it's crazy hot. Need to tune a bit more, and give a serious load run to evaluate (if dieseling is gone and plugs look OK).

 

[Boink]

UPDATE: I changed out all the NGP for the HP (Evans) and the dieseling stopped! Perhaps the viscosity was the difference (given my borderline block). I did tweak the mixture in the carbs, so it wasn't an apples-to-apples comparison, but I did get the engine up to 180-190 and no dieseling. :rolleye: