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TexasKnucklehead

Jedi Knight
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water pump seal up-date

Anyone remember this thread I started some time ago about the water pump seal?

https://www.britishcarforum.com/bcforum/ubbthreads.php/topics/652641/1

As an update, the seal kept water from dripping long enough for me to know that the block tap leaked like crazy. After I drained and fixed that, it kept the water up to the top of the radiator for 2 days while I got ready to start up. I don't think the engine ran for 10 seconds before water began spewing out the water pump. As you can see in the picture, the unitary seal came apart.
 

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Re: water pump seal up-date

I remember that thread. So what are your thoughts on the destruction of the seal? Wrong seal as Randall thought in one post? Installed backwards?

Scott
 
Re: water pump seal up-date

Well... if by "wrong seal" you mean "not as original", then it certainly is not the same type as original. I thought no one sold original seals, but I just checked and TRF shows 100858 supplied as 148322. -I hope it's not the same part as supplied by VB.

I'm pretty confident it was not installed backwards, because it really doesn't fit the other way round. The way I had it, the cup fits into the impeller, and the flat surface against the housing.

I know a common failure on water pumps on outboard motors relates to running them dry, but I'm also fairly confident this was wet -there could always be air pockets, but I would hope a pump would be tolerant of that for more than 10 seconds.

It seems to me that the part that sits against the housing, is not expected to rotate (the rotation is done within the seal), but in this case, it rotated and tore the rubber housing off.
 
Re: water pump seal up-date

I used to rebuild water pumps years ago, and think I know what happened any why. If you used a unitized seal as you mention, and looking at the parts in the picture it appears to be so, then that type of seal will NOT work in this application.

The reason is that the TR pump is constructed backwards from most pumps, and a unitized seal will only work work then the cartridge body of the seal is pressed into the <span style="font-weight: bold">housing</span> of the pump not into the <span style="font-weight: bold">impeller</span>. Once in the housing, the unitized part seals around the <span style="font-weight: bold">shaft</span>, and not the impeller as was standard practice when the cartridge part was pressed into the housing.

The way the TR pump is set up, The cartridge is spinning with the shaft. Not the way it was designed. The TR pump needs a non-unitized cartridge seal.
 
Re: water pump seal up-date

As yet another update, I trimmed off the lip at the top of the attached picture. Then I put that white (ceramic?) seal against the cartridge (black hard material). The white seal sits directly against the pump housing, and the cartridge -which is sealed by a rubber sheath that fits into the impeller, instead of being encompassed by a rubber sheath (that tore off at start-up). The cartridge has a spring in it, keeping tension against the white seal and housing.

I know it was an act of purist optimism, but what else was I going to do with this pump? (Only 1 of the 2 required seals is available.) It was worth a try and it seems to be working. I had a 13lb pressure cap on the radiator and have no leaks anywhere, except between the water valve extension/pipe assembly and the valve. Even with a 7# cap, I can't stop the leak at the water valve pipe -it drips around the threaded pipe (brand new from TRF) -and the 'original' broken off nub pipe leaked the same way. I tried Teflon dope, a thin copper washer/seal, then Indian head gasket shellac. I'm afraid to tighten it too much. The 5/16" pipe is some kind of soft metal and there's only about 4 threads that go into the brass valve. It doesn't leak until the temperature gets to about 180, then the warmer, the more the leak. Any suggestions? JBWeld?
 

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Re: water pump seal up-date

Hey Jer
I bet a little RTV on the cleaned threads would seal up real nice on the water heater valve. I got mine from TRF too, so I'll let you know if she leaks when I get to that point.

Nice block petcock valve. Do you remember what the thread size/pitch is on the petcock handle? Mine was frozen solid and handle broken off. I soaked in penetrant overnight and pushed tapered shaft out of valve body with a vice. I can clean and lap it and pray it seals. I drilled and used EZ-Out on the broken off handle. Now, I need to make a new handle. It is smaller than quarter inch diameter. I think it is #12 NF. Can't tell TPI on the little nub I removed but is about 28 TPI, approximately.

Pat
 
Re: water pump seal up-date

Jerry-

Caution on that pipe makes sense to me. I had the same issue on my TR4, and gave it 'one more turn' and sheared it off in the head. Luck reversed for me and I was able to back it out fortunately. I think Pat is on to something with RTV. A little Permatex, let it set and I bet you'll be ok.

Pat-

If you get in the business of making tap handles, please consider me a customer- I have a sheared off valve just as you describe. Didn't realize it was threaded.

Randy
 
Re: water pump seal up-date

Pat, I have the same petcock on the radiator bottom as well. I didn't take either handle off, so don't know the thread pitch. The one on the block was provided by a fellow club member -bead blasted and looking new. But it leaked when I added water. I had to "retension" the spring and lap the tapered shaft with some rubbing compound before it would seal. I lightly greased the tapered shaft before trying it again. I'm sure yours will seal as well.

I'll try the RTV, but I didn't think that would hold up to pressure -and it needs to cure overnight and suddenly I have little patience.
 
Re: water pump seal up-date

OK. A #12-24 will thread in, but not properly. It's actually a 28tpi. The one on my radiator was removable, but the one in the block appears to be one piece -and I didn't want to break it. I'll rtv the handle back in place, as it was very tight and I'd hate to lose it.
 

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Thanks Jer, that's exactly what I expected. I'll find a 12-28 die (not easy to find) and make me a new brass handle on my vertical lathe (AKA very cheap HF drill press). If it works, I'l be in business selling these to all my friends!
Hah!
 
Re: water pump seal up-date

Hey kinda dragging up an old post but, I was looking at my petcock in preparation for trying to flush my cooling system. My petcock handle i sticking straight out away from the engine. Is that open or closed?
 
Re: water pump seal up-date

Straight out is closed. 90 degrees is full open.

I'm happy to say the sealant worked and the pump is still not leaking. But, when it does, I have a new one from TRF to go in. -I've used nearly a full tank watching it idle in the driveway (tho the tank is only a 1.5 gallon can).
 
Re: water pump seal up-date

I just had my block drain off, and to my surprise the valve is closed when the handle points away from the engine and open when perpendicular to the stream of water that comes out. I found that strange because all other valves I have had to do with were the other way around.
 
Re: water pump seal up-date

I just located mine and need to flush so I'll have to open it any tips on one that likely was turned by Winston Churchill last?
 
Re: water pump seal up-date

Bremer said:
...and to my surprise the valve is closed when the handle points away from the engine and open when perpendicular to the stream of water that comes out...
Click to expand...
Yes, that is very strange. Does anyone know why?
When I decided to flush out the block, after driving it for a couple of years, I found the valve in the open position. The DPO probably thought it was in the closed position. Fortunately, all the silt prevented the coolant draining out. :laugh:

Cheers!
 
Re: water pump seal up-date

ekamm said:
I just located mine and need to flush so I'll have to open it any tips on one that likely was turned by Winston Churchill last?
Click to expand...
My only suggestion is to try not to break it. They take a fair amount of force to turn, but the handle is only brass and not particularly strong. If the valve is stuck badly enough that you can't turn it with your fingers, you may be able to save it by removing it from the engine and disassembling the valve rather than trying to force it to turn.
 
Re: water pump seal up-date

TR3driver said:
My only suggestion is to try not to break it. They take a fair amount of force to turn, but the handle is only brass and not particularly strong. If the valve is stuck badly enough that you can't turn it with your fingers, you may be able to save it by removing it from the engine and disassembling the valve rather than trying to force it to turn.
Click to expand...

Wise advice - I only wish I read it about 4 years ago when I tried to open the one on my TR4. Doh!
 
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