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Water In Oil - Normal?/Rocker Oiler

TheAssociate

Jedi Hopeful
Offline
What is normal for condensation in oil?

I'll ask the opinion of everyone. My 1973 Spitfire has a slight coating of the brownish/cream Bailey's Liquor looking substance(water in oil) inside the valve cover, and inside the oil filler cap. When I remove the valve cover, the valve train looks good(no residue), and recently I had the oil pan off(to repaint and inspect, and new connecting rod bearings). There was NO staining of the oil, and I could not find any other contamination except in the very top of the valve cover.

If anyone has anything good to say about rocker oilers please pipe in! I'm thinking of adding that piece because from time to time I can actually HEAR the valve tappets going dry while I'm driving.

I do drive this car all year, it's very wet in winter in B.C., and I was driving it for short distances in the morning, but I just wanted to know what was normal for everyone else.


Adam H.
___________________________________________________________
1973 Triumph Spitfire
 
Don't worry, condensation is quite normal under the valve cover. I see that with my TR4 as well. No evidence in your oil pan gives you assurance.
 
Thanks TR4. There is no contamination in the pan.


Adam H.
____________________________________________________________
1973 Triumph Spitfire
 
You mean there should be oil in
the pan? Mine is on the garage floor.

Is that like the sawdust in Crypty's
gearbox?

d
 
Dale - I've read the manual. I'm pretty sure the oil goes in the engine, and the sawdust goes on the floor to soak up the oil. Sounds like your PO was taking oil recycling to a new level!

Adam H.
____________________________________________________________
1973 Triumph Spitfire
 
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]If anyone has anything good to say about rocker oilers please pipe in! I'm thinking of adding that piece because from time to time I can actually HEAR the valve tappets going dry while I'm driving. [/QUOTE]

You should not need a rocker oiler. If your rockers really are going dry then you should find out if something is blocking the oil passage. Take off the rocker assembly and see if the oil passages are plugged up.
The problem with the oil feed to the head it that it 1. reduces oil to where it is really needed - the bottom of the engine. 2 the extra oil on top tends to cause more oil being burned.
 
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]My 1973 Spitfire has a slight coating of the brownish/cream Bailey's Liquor looking substance(water in oil) inside the valve cover, and inside the oil filler cap. When I remove the valve cover, the valve train looks good(no residue), and recently I had the oil pan off(to repaint and inspect, and new connecting rod bearings).[/QUOTE]

That's not so much a factor of how long the car sits as it is how long the car is driven and how regularly. If the engine gets fully warmed up for 1/2 hour, 1 hour or longer driving on a weekly (or so) basis there should be less sludge buildup. An engine that's only used for very short trips, or worse is just started for 10-15 min. even daily, never warms up fully and will not get hot enough to "cook off" condensation and other crankcase contaminents. In fact, short warming and quick cooling might increase condensation build-up by being just enough to cause more condensation, but never warmed up enough to boil of the excess.

It's also a sign that the engine breather system ain't doin' it's job very well. I don't know specifics on your car, but imagine on a '73 that would include a PCV valve and some other anti-pollution things. But, some cars are just prone to building up some sludge (a friend's Pontiac 4-cyl., for example). If the sludge is only found under the valve cover, it might be easy enough to just clean out occasionally. But, might also be a good idea to make sure that any PCV, etc. is hooked up properly and in good working order.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:] If anyone has anything good to say about rocker oilers please pipe in! I'm thinking of adding that piece because from time to time I can actually HEAR the valve tappets going dry while I'm driving. [/QUOTE]

I don't have *anything* good to say about rocker oilers... period. It makes no sense to me to steal lubrication from the far more important main and conrod bearing surfaces (iffy enough in some of the Triumph motors, I'm not sure if the 1500 has crank oiling issues, though). I'd much rather have to repair an easily accessed rocker assembly, than have to rebuild the lower end of an engine!

Not actually listening to your engine, it's pretty hard to say what might need attention. In older style engines, some valve clatter is natural at startup. It should quiet down a lot once the engine is warmed up and clearances close down (in fact, that's one reason clearances are called for). It would be great if you could find an LBC mechanic in your area - and/or LBC car club members who are familiar with the 1500 - to will listen to your engine and give you their opinion. Many of us who regularly drive modern cars with hydraulic lifters and engine compartment noise deadening pads can be overly sensitive to noises when behind the wheels of our sports cars!

If it's really overly noisy and continues to clatter pretty loudly even when warmed up there are other things to check:

First, is valve clearance properly set?

Then, are you using the correct weight oil and is it being kept fresh enough (For example, if not driven far or often, change every 3 months, rather than based upon mileage).

Are you using the right kind of oil? Two cars I put pure synthetic in quickly developed noisier valve trains. Those both had hydraulic lifters, though. I don't use 100% synthetic any more and would likely use plain non-synthetic in an older design engine like a Triumph's.

Next, yes, check that oil is getting to the rockers okay. Just run the engine for a while with the valve cover off to observe if oil is working it's way out past the rockers on their shaft. If the oil feed is routed up through the pedestal at the rear, pay particular attention to the front of the rocker shaft (this is a common design, but check the service manual for your car in particular).

Also it might be a good idea to test oil pressure, that the oil pump is doing its job. Don't trust the dash gauge alone, test with a second gauge (or take to a shop that can test it for you).

Finally, yes, remove the rocker assembly as recommended (carefully... don't pull the pushrods out with it... sometimes the lifters get out of position and sometimes it can be tricky to get it all back together... don't ask me how I know!).

But don't stop with just removing the rocker assembly from the car. It really needs to be fully disassembled to find out if there is excessive wear. Usually there is, but it often can't be identified until things are taken completely apart. Often the rocker shaft and rocker bushings are worn and need replacement.

Also closely check the faces of the rockers, where they run against the valves. If worn, this makes it difficult to adjust them accurately, and that leads to more noise. If needed, a machine shop should be able to re-face them for you.

If replacing the rocker shaft, try to get a good, hardened one. When reassembling, make sure oil hole(s) in the shaft and pedestal line up well, and the pedestal with the oiling hole in the head.

Finally, has there been any modification done to the car's head or valve train? If, for example, the head were milled to increase compression and/or some type of thinner head gasket is used, that can throw off the geometry of the valve train unless specially shortened pushrods are used and/or if the valve train isn't shimmed up to compensate. If the rockers are not working in the middle of their arc, this puts increased sideways pressure on their faces at the valve end and everything wears more rapidly... valve guides and rocker faces, and gets really clattery. Also, a high performance cam shaft is often noisier, because it requires the valve train be run a little looser than a milder stock cam. If, no matter what you do the noise continues and bugs you, a set of roller rockers might be a solution. They won't increase performance much, but can help quiet things down a little and reduce side-strain/wear between the rocker face and the end of the valve itself.

By the way, it's possible the sludge buildup and valve train noise are related. Excessive condensation not properly vented or internal coolant leaks can both lead to some dilution of the oil, which can in turn cause a lot more engine noise. You might want to have a leak-down compression test done, which would spot any head gasket leaks, the most likely way that coolant would get into the oil sump. You can also have a sample of old oil from the engine analyzed, to see if it's got anti-freeze or cross-other contaminants in it.

Hope this helps and it's an easy solution! Keep us posted.
 
The other side of the coin.
I had the same sludge inside the valve cover and the oil cap on my Austin Healey, but none in the oil pan or on the dip stick. However, over the course of a couple of years, the sludge increased even when driving the car on long runs. Finally, I started to see a little Baileys on the dip stick. Since I had low oil pressure (worn bearings), it was time for an engine rebuild. Possibly water and antifreeze had mixed with the oil over the years and did a job on the bearings. Anyway, in rebuilding the engine, we found a hairline crack in the block. Here's hoping your problem is just the condensation.
 
Thanks for the replies! Well, Alan I think after pondering what you said about oil pressure I will skip the rocker oiler for now. I like your logic.
I also drove my car 110 miles today(way up the ocean road past Jordan River), and noticed that with the new connecting rod bearings in, the oil pressure is higher - no more starvation(there is no oil guage in a Spitfire, but I could hear it). Sounds extreme, but then again I had some pretty extreme wear on the connecting rod bearings. Luckily, while I had the pan off I was able to look at the cam - and it looked very smooth, felt smooth.
There is no emission control on a '73 except a crankcase breather tube. It reburns gasses by routing them through the carb.
To answer your question, it looks like a bone stock 1500, commission #FM837UESS. I believe it has been rebuilt at least once, as the connecting rod bearings I put in were .030(max for this engine). Internally, this engine is very clean, I found nothing in the pan(except about 1/2 a cup of lithium grease), and the engine is sludge free.
Also, I recently switched to diesel oil, plus a half of a litre of Lucas oil treatment. I'm happy with it so far.
This car is driven daily, and every month I drive a 400 mile round trip to my parents up island.
I think I will focus on doing a good valve tune.

Adam H.
____________________________________________________________
1973 Triumph Spitfire.
 
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