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Anyone have any good ideas on how to reduce valve train noise in a TR3. Nothing is wrong with the engine. I would just like to get rid of the mechanical noise.
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Hi, Bill -
My TR3 was noisy as well, and I rechecked my valve settings. They were a bit loose, so I reset them. Still, it was noisier than I would have liked. But, I was told by several old hands that it's fairly common to hear a bit of racket. There are aluminum valve covers that will muffle it a bit, and you might try insulating the bonnet. But in reality, the noise is your friend - you don't want the valves too tight!
Mickey
My TR3 was noisy as well, and I rechecked my valve settings. They were a bit loose, so I reset them. Still, it was noisier than I would have liked. But, I was told by several old hands that it's fairly common to hear a bit of racket. There are aluminum valve covers that will muffle it a bit, and you might try insulating the bonnet. But in reality, the noise is your friend - you don't want the valves too tight!
Mickey
Hi Bill I can not hear it from here, so perhaps it is fine. Yes that noise is very disturbing and I have gone to great efforts to quiet mine down. Always read the literature on these things and the Haynes manual is good. However, there is a typo in there on valve adjustment. It is in the sequence section. You will see it if you look at it and use some common sense. Anyways Mickey is right better a little loose than tight. Having said that, one of the most common problems is a wore out shaft. All the adjusting in the world will not fix that because the shafts become gouged out. Every tr3 I have taken apart needed at least a new shaft and usually re-bushing and resurfacing of the rockers. What often happens is the valve stem works its way up into the rocker creating a dish in the rocker and the feeler gauge spans the dish and does not provide adequate adjustment. If all is done proper you will really have to listen to hear the valve train.
Sp53
Sp53
Geo Hahn
Yoda
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Haven't tried it but have heard of someone lining the stock valve cover with some cork to deaden the noise. You would want to be double-darn sure that stuff didn't get loose in there though.
Personally I like a bit of valve racket -- but maybe that's because years of VW driving has left me nearly deaf to valve noise.
Personally I like a bit of valve racket -- but maybe that's because years of VW driving has left me nearly deaf to valve noise.
trfourtune
Jedi Knight
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aluminum valve cover,insulation in hood, insulate fire wall more, install headers and performance exhaust, wear leather driving hat that covers ears.
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/devilgrin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/savewave.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/driving.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
rob
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/devilgrin.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/savewave.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/driving.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
rob
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[ QUOTE ]
...Always read the literature on these things and the Haynes manual is good. However, there is a typo in there on valve adjustment. It is in the sequence section. You will see it if you look at it and use some common sense....
[/ QUOTE ]Out of curiosity, could you elaborate a bit? What is the typo, and what SHOULD it say?
...Always read the literature on these things and the Haynes manual is good. However, there is a typo in there on valve adjustment. It is in the sequence section. You will see it if you look at it and use some common sense....
[/ QUOTE ]Out of curiosity, could you elaborate a bit? What is the typo, and what SHOULD it say?
Hi Andy well I do not have my book with me, but it is the area of adjusting sequence when the chapter reads adjust:
1 with 8 open
2 with 7 open
3 with 6 open
" "
" "
Anyways the chart puts in the wrong number for open or closed somewhere. I can not remember the exact one, but if you have a book turn to the chapter on valve adjustment.
sp53
1 with 8 open
2 with 7 open
3 with 6 open
" "
" "
Anyways the chart puts in the wrong number for open or closed somewhere. I can not remember the exact one, but if you have a book turn to the chapter on valve adjustment.
sp53
Alan_Myers
Luke Skywalker
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Hi,
I suppose there's a reason they call them "tappets". /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
The TR 4-cylinder valve train was always a bit noisy, especially at cold start before things heat up and clearances close up a little.
It's hard to judge without actually listening to your car, and you say that there's nothing wrong with the engine. However, maybe it's just time for a freshening up of the head and/or valve train.
Since it's easy to get to and parts aren't overly expensive, I'd start by looking at the rocker assembly and possibly rebuilding that. If you do rebuild it, the hardened rocker shaft is a good investment, if you can find one.
If you remove the rocker shaft and arms for inspection/rebuild, look closely at the faces of the rockers, where they wipe the valve. If worn, these might need refacing, which is a relatively precise job for a machine shop. The reason this makes for more noise is that, when worn, it can be next to impossible to adjust accurately. A groove in the middle of the face is bridged by the feeler gauge and you actually end up with a lot more gap than you realize.
The rocker assembly is easy to remove. Just be careful not to lift any of the pushrods with it. Often when they are lifted, residual oil in the cam followers will cause a suction and those will lift too, and they can be real buggers to get back into their bores without removing the head. The pushrods need to be kept in their original locations, anyway.
In the head, it's possible the valve guides in the head are contributing to the excessive noise. If they have never been replaced with the type for unleaded fuel, there might be a lot of wear and that might make for some more noise. Tired old valve springs might add some, too. I suppose a severe case of valve seat recession, also because of unleaded fuel, might make for some additional noise, too, since it would throw off rocker geometry.
However, I gotta note that the new valve guides made for unleaded fuel should be run loose, honed over the orignal factory specifications by about +.0015 on the intakes and +.0025 on the exhaust. This will make things a little noisier than original, but may be better than what you are hearing now. The extra clearance is needed because the modern materials expand more when hot, and that can cause a valve to sieze, which in turn can tear up other parts of the motor.
And, has the head ever been milled? If so, the length of the pushrods should have been modified to match. If too long or too short, the geometry of the rockers will be off and that will make for lots of rattle.
Probably the ultimate would be to convert to roller rockers, which should make for less wear and tear, as well as run quieter. About the best price I've found on them is Ted Schumacher's at www.tsimportedautomotive.com
Other suggestions are good. Common solutions are sound deadening material on the hood/firewall and cast aluminum valve covers.
I especially like the idea of fitting headers and a free flow exhaust... that, and maybe a set of Webers sucking in lots of air and fuel would drown out the valve noise! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif However, with those mods, the motor would probably also get a high performance cam fitted, which usually needs a lot *more* clearance, maybe .018" on the exhaust side. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
It might also be possible to paint the outside of the stock valve cover with sound deadnening material. One of the companies that makes the sheet material (Dynamat maybe?) is now selling something in rattle cans. By the way, the TR's front engine cover, at the timing chain, originally had a bunch of goop slapped on it that served as sound deadening. (Removing it has cost more than one concours contestant a few points!)
One thing I *don't* recommend is the bypass oil feed that some vendors offer. It's sold for both the 6- and 4-cylinder engines. However, on the 4-cyl. it seems to just increase oil burning, while stealing some oil pressure normally delivered to important things like the crank and cam. (Might work well on the 6-cyl. TR engine, I don't know much about that.)
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif
I suppose there's a reason they call them "tappets". /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
The TR 4-cylinder valve train was always a bit noisy, especially at cold start before things heat up and clearances close up a little.
It's hard to judge without actually listening to your car, and you say that there's nothing wrong with the engine. However, maybe it's just time for a freshening up of the head and/or valve train.
Since it's easy to get to and parts aren't overly expensive, I'd start by looking at the rocker assembly and possibly rebuilding that. If you do rebuild it, the hardened rocker shaft is a good investment, if you can find one.
If you remove the rocker shaft and arms for inspection/rebuild, look closely at the faces of the rockers, where they wipe the valve. If worn, these might need refacing, which is a relatively precise job for a machine shop. The reason this makes for more noise is that, when worn, it can be next to impossible to adjust accurately. A groove in the middle of the face is bridged by the feeler gauge and you actually end up with a lot more gap than you realize.
The rocker assembly is easy to remove. Just be careful not to lift any of the pushrods with it. Often when they are lifted, residual oil in the cam followers will cause a suction and those will lift too, and they can be real buggers to get back into their bores without removing the head. The pushrods need to be kept in their original locations, anyway.
In the head, it's possible the valve guides in the head are contributing to the excessive noise. If they have never been replaced with the type for unleaded fuel, there might be a lot of wear and that might make for some more noise. Tired old valve springs might add some, too. I suppose a severe case of valve seat recession, also because of unleaded fuel, might make for some additional noise, too, since it would throw off rocker geometry.
However, I gotta note that the new valve guides made for unleaded fuel should be run loose, honed over the orignal factory specifications by about +.0015 on the intakes and +.0025 on the exhaust. This will make things a little noisier than original, but may be better than what you are hearing now. The extra clearance is needed because the modern materials expand more when hot, and that can cause a valve to sieze, which in turn can tear up other parts of the motor.
And, has the head ever been milled? If so, the length of the pushrods should have been modified to match. If too long or too short, the geometry of the rockers will be off and that will make for lots of rattle.
Probably the ultimate would be to convert to roller rockers, which should make for less wear and tear, as well as run quieter. About the best price I've found on them is Ted Schumacher's at www.tsimportedautomotive.com
Other suggestions are good. Common solutions are sound deadening material on the hood/firewall and cast aluminum valve covers.
I especially like the idea of fitting headers and a free flow exhaust... that, and maybe a set of Webers sucking in lots of air and fuel would drown out the valve noise! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif However, with those mods, the motor would probably also get a high performance cam fitted, which usually needs a lot *more* clearance, maybe .018" on the exhaust side. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
It might also be possible to paint the outside of the stock valve cover with sound deadnening material. One of the companies that makes the sheet material (Dynamat maybe?) is now selling something in rattle cans. By the way, the TR's front engine cover, at the timing chain, originally had a bunch of goop slapped on it that served as sound deadening. (Removing it has cost more than one concours contestant a few points!)
One thing I *don't* recommend is the bypass oil feed that some vendors offer. It's sold for both the 6- and 4-cylinder engines. However, on the 4-cyl. it seems to just increase oil burning, while stealing some oil pressure normally delivered to important things like the crank and cam. (Might work well on the 6-cyl. TR engine, I don't know much about that.)
/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cheers.gif
Geo Hahn
Yoda
Offline
[ QUOTE ]
...By the way, the TR's front engine cover, at the timing chain, originally had a bunch of goop slapped on it that served as sound deadening. (Removing it has cost more than one concours contestant a few points!)...
[/ QUOTE ]
I think this is not toally accurate though the story is perpetuated by a paragraph in the Moss catalog and borne out by the concours manual.
Neither of my TRs have the deadener. In the case of the TR3A it could have been removed but such an effort seems unlikely on a car that received so little attention anywhere else. The TR4 is a low-miles original (paint, leather, top, etc) car and has a timing chain cover w/o the goop.
OTOH the TRA concours manual for TR3s says the deadener should be present, unpainted, probably gray in color.
A former Triumph employee said it should look like "it was applied with a wooden spoon by a man wearing a blindfold".
My *guess* is that some got it and some didn't (there's a long list of stuff that seems to work that way).
...By the way, the TR's front engine cover, at the timing chain, originally had a bunch of goop slapped on it that served as sound deadening. (Removing it has cost more than one concours contestant a few points!)...
[/ QUOTE ]
I think this is not toally accurate though the story is perpetuated by a paragraph in the Moss catalog and borne out by the concours manual.
Neither of my TRs have the deadener. In the case of the TR3A it could have been removed but such an effort seems unlikely on a car that received so little attention anywhere else. The TR4 is a low-miles original (paint, leather, top, etc) car and has a timing chain cover w/o the goop.
OTOH the TRA concours manual for TR3s says the deadener should be present, unpainted, probably gray in color.
A former Triumph employee said it should look like "it was applied with a wooden spoon by a man wearing a blindfold".
My *guess* is that some got it and some didn't (there's a long list of stuff that seems to work that way).
OP
Deleted member 451
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Thanks everyone. I'll give some of this a try.
Alan_Myers
Luke Skywalker
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[ QUOTE ]
Alan,
Are you saying modern valve stems expand more than the older stems? If so I understand the need to hone the guides. If you are referring to the guide material it will expand outward, or try to do so depending on the surrounding material.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hi,
Yes, that's what I'm saying. Modern valve guide materials (phosphor bronze or something like that) are necessary for unleaded fuel. As it warms, that material tends to expand more than the originals (leaded fuel type, not sure what the materials are but it got it's lubrication from the lead in gasoline). So, they need to be honed slightly more than the originals, i.e. more than the specifications in the service manual. In fact, the new size will be close to the upper service limit (max wear) of the original guides. So, a shop that's following the service manual specs might set them up too tight (there was a case like this, I suspect, recently reported here on BCF, TR3 with a siezed valve in a freshly rebuilt engine).
The reason I brought it up is that the valve train may be a little noisier during the first couple minutes, due to the extra clearance needed.
By the way, rest assured that too tight valve guides can and will bind up around the valve stem. There is nowhere for guide to expand outwards, as it heats up, since the guide is pressed into the head.
Alan,
Are you saying modern valve stems expand more than the older stems? If so I understand the need to hone the guides. If you are referring to the guide material it will expand outward, or try to do so depending on the surrounding material.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hi,
Yes, that's what I'm saying. Modern valve guide materials (phosphor bronze or something like that) are necessary for unleaded fuel. As it warms, that material tends to expand more than the originals (leaded fuel type, not sure what the materials are but it got it's lubrication from the lead in gasoline). So, they need to be honed slightly more than the originals, i.e. more than the specifications in the service manual. In fact, the new size will be close to the upper service limit (max wear) of the original guides. So, a shop that's following the service manual specs might set them up too tight (there was a case like this, I suspect, recently reported here on BCF, TR3 with a siezed valve in a freshly rebuilt engine).
The reason I brought it up is that the valve train may be a little noisier during the first couple minutes, due to the extra clearance needed.
By the way, rest assured that too tight valve guides can and will bind up around the valve stem. There is nowhere for guide to expand outwards, as it heats up, since the guide is pressed into the head.
Simon TR4a
Jedi Knight
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I think cast iron was the material of choice for valve guides before leaded gasoline; it has good wear properties and good "lubricity", so I've been told. I take this too mean that the surface is relatively slippery with a minimum of lubricant.
Remember, too, the popularity in the 1960's of "top end lubricants" like Redex, which were added to your tank when you filled up at the gas station. Likely not friendly to catalytic converters!
Simon.
Remember, too, the popularity in the 1960's of "top end lubricants" like Redex, which were added to your tank when you filled up at the gas station. Likely not friendly to catalytic converters!
Simon.