TSI gear-reduction starter into '65 Sprite

[Tremelune]

I'm putting a TSI starter into my Sprite. I ordered it over the phone and recieved the starter quite swiftly. It's a <span style="font-style: italic">beast!</span>

There seem to be a few not-so-drop-in changes for this starter. First: the electrical post is much larger than stock.

I put the (probably not stock) power cable in a vice and simply drilled out the center. There is less material there than I would like, but it should be enough.

The gears do not line up...So much so that I'm worried. While the stock starter is designed to connect with the flywheel from the rear and the TSI starter is designed to connect to the flywheel from the front...It doesn't look like it will mesh very completely with the flywheel. I don't think the flywheel is thick enough to cover that difference.

Has anyone ever installed one of these? My plan is to put it in and see what happens. Even if it works, I have fears of premature flywheel wear, etc...

 

[Tremelune]

In order to get this starter in, I needed to pull this big air tub out of the way--I didn't see any way of getting it in from the bottom as I could with the stock starter (though I think the previous owner enlarged the hole with a hammer).

I hit a pretty massive snag on installation...Once I got the starter positioned in the motor, I noticed I could not get it flush or line up both bolts. It turns out the trim ring is too large to fit next to the motor. It just can't centered because it hits the motor. Essentially, this starter will not fit as-is.

I pulled it out for a better look, and I noticed the trim ring metal was a different finish in the very area that was abutting the engine. This leads me to believe that whoever machined this trim ring knew that this bit of metal would be an issue. I'm assuming this should have been ground out before delivery?

Anyway, I marked it with the intention of grinding the area flat.

I stopped at this point. I don't want to grind a $200 starter before I'm sure it will work after I put it in. I believe I have the 1098cc motor. Has anyone ever installed one of these successfully? Is this a common procedure--to grind metal away? I feel like TSI could have mentioned this to me...

 

[Spridget64SC]

I have used a TSI starter for 5+ years now on my HP/FP race Spridget. Have used many of the gear reduction starters since they first arrived on the scene in the 80's. Some fitted up fine, but had other issues (too thin of an adapter plate) which were bothersome as well.

I believe I did have to machine a flat about where you have the scratches on your starter. I did my adaption on the mill, but a file will work too. I also had to change the orientation of my TSI starter to better line up with the oil pan/block and where I wanted the cable attachment to orient. Just remove the two socket head Allen bolts and orient the starter body to line up the mounting base with the attachment holes. Put a drop of Locktite "Blue" thread locker on the bolts and tighten them into the starter housing. Remember these are steel bolts into aluminum, so tighten appropriately. I put two "dots" ".." on the base and the starter body to mark the correct orientation for my application after I found the right fit-up. Did this because I wanted the cable attachment in a specific orientation and also expected to get the starter repaired at a shop after about 4-5 years of service. Sure enough. It lasted about 5 years in my racing application.

If you have the stock slave hose orientation/fixings, these will have to be considered as well.

1275's seem to have more oil pan mounting flange interference issues than the 948/1098 engines. I have seen blocks ground on the flange from the factory to permit alignment of the stock starter. The engagement of the starter pinion teeth with the flywheel has never been a problem. Sometimes when we adapt the Japanese starters from a street vehicle over to the Spridgets, we adjust the pinion depths, but this shouldn't be an issue with the TSI starter. The adapter should take the engagement into account.

Because of the difference in power post orientation between the two starters, I would suggest replacing the extension cable from the Lucas starter solenoid. The stock cable also has a right angle end. This will make fit up a bit odd and potentially damaging to the post and the insulation on the stock cable. Use a #4 or #6 gauge cable with straight ends of appropriate length. Cables should be available from any of the auto parts chain stores. A supplemental wire is needed to the integral starter solenoid on the TSI starter. This will be redundant to the solenoid on the passenger footwell. Not a problem. I set my racer up this way so that I could use a Lucas starter in a pinch if needed. The jumper should be a #14 gauge wire between the main post and the little screw connection in the top pictures. You will need a crimp terminal of sufficient ID to go over the main power post. Make sure not to short out the two power post connections to the starter body. This will require proper orientation of the smaller wire's terminal and the power cable terminal. With the length of the main power post, a metric/sae flat washer of the proper size should fit on top of the battery cable end and provide good surface/current transfer from cable to post.

HTH
Mike Miller

PS: Ted Schumaker (TSI) is a good guy. I've bought and sold stuff with him a number of times. If you have any issues, give him a call. I'm sure he'll help you get through any issues. That starter assembly can be used on many different BLMC cars and the adapter plate is made to be modified for the specific application.

 

[Tremelune]

I just spoke with TSI and (presumably) Ted said that there might be some filing involved for older motors (which I would say 1965 qualifies for...). Great guy to deal with, as has been mentioned before (and is actually why I chose to buy from TSI, somewhat incidentally).

He also assuaged my larger fear, which is that the starter gear would not mesh with the flywheel sufficiently (I believe he said 60% meshing is fine). It turns out that the position of the starter gear when unpowered is <i>not</i> the position it is in when turning the flywheel to start the car. When powered, the gear extends outward until it engages with the flywheel, <i>then</i> it spins with gusto.


So, I'm just gonna file this thing and hope for the best. Looking at the power wires, I believe they've been upgraded recently. They're beefy and clean. Though the L bracket is awkward, if it fits physically, that's good enough for me. I'll just bridge the starter solenoid to the main post and use the stock solenoid (until it dies).

 

[Tremelune]

Full success! Thing sounds like an anti-aircraft gun when it's turning the motor over. It took a bit of doing to get it in, though...

First, I shaved over 1/8" off the mounting plate (after masking things off). Basically, the whole area with a different "finish" got more or less flattened.

It wasn't enough. I got it in the housing and got one bolt on, but when I got under the car there was no way to get the second bolt in, as the mounting plate was still butting against the engine block (1098cc, which I think is the same block as the 948cc). I lost my patience and cut off that entire section of the mounting plate with a hacksaw and cutting wheel.

I had to bend this metal line out of the way a few inches (what is that thing?), but I finally got the starter in place.

Here's a shot of the solenoid bridge I drummed up. I'm using the stock solenoid, so this solenoid should always be provided power when the starter is.

Everything worked great, and I took the car out for a spin for the first time since September...which means I now have new issues to deal with.

 

[JPSmit]

Pretty sure the metal line is the oil pressure line to the gauge

 

[Pythias]

That line is either your brake line or your slave cylinder line. easiest to trace it back to the master cylinder to be sure which.

 

[HAN8L1965]

My question is this, why go through all of this when you could have bought the exact starter for 100 bucks, it does not take any extra effort to start a 1098. If you are just looking for bling at least spend it where you can see it. I agree with Bill that line runs to your slave cylinder.

PS It is a beauty

Enjoy the adventure,

Mark

 

[Tremelune]

This is why.

 

[HAN8L1965]

But you need to realize there is no better time spent with a member of the opposite sex sitting back in the blazing sun in your most wonderful prize posession, deciding what your next move will be, never let them where heels to this party.

Our real sweethearts barely weigh anything and what an opportunity to do a little cardio together.

Mark

 

[jollyroger]

I just go to O'reilly's auto parts and order a starter for a 1988 Isuzu trooper 2.6 liter. Bolts right up. The one for the 1990 takes a bit of work to make it fit. You can also order a stock starter there too.

 

[Hap Waldrop]

The TSI gear reduction starter has a different front adpater than the Gustfason gear reduction starters for Sprdgiet and early MGB (same starter/part number in the gear reduction starter) the adapter TSI makes has a near 360 degree adjsutment as for how you can adjsut the adapter for fitting into a given application, but this is the very problem of interfenrence on the TSI starter in a A series Spridget, the Gustfason starter has a more taditional shaped front adapter and has adjustment holes, but fewer, but plenty of adjust needed for fitting on the A series engine, the Gustfason starter would not require the modification you had to do to the TSI starter. AS for the worhtiness of gear reuction start, well we use to exploed the drives of the stock starters on the race cars, and the stock starter only does a minimal job in stock engine, a gear reuction starter will always contine to turn over until the engine is cranked, none of the kick in, kick out crap of the old style starter, it's alot more than bling to me, its a relaible starter. Once you buy one of the fancy gear reduction starter, should you ever wear it out beyond rebuild you can always go buy the Trooper or severla other idnetical application of this starter body and simply swap over you fornt adpter palte and the modified front section housing to your store bought start and you have anew gear reduction start again, the made, kdified pieces should never wear out,and can be wasily swapped over, thats what you are paying for is the modifcation, but you should only have to pay for it one time.

 

[BlueMax]

Gear reduction starters are ideal for today’s cars, especially for the boys who are running big bore engines and over 9 to 1 compression ratios. The extra torque makes starting an ease and less drain on the battery because it’s spinning the engine over quicker not lousing rpm during amperage draw. I agree with Hap, why spend that kind of money on a gear reduction starter and have to make alterations to the fit, defeats the purpose. Stay with products that fit the first time and are known for their quality is your best solution. It has been know by many racers that the Trooper starter will fit the backing plate of the A type Spridget. However your power cable attachment will not be in the most ideal location. Another problem can occur at the passenger side at the inside left corner foot well box, this interference occurs with the starter’s solenoid. This is due to the body fatigue and engine fitment. But if you car doesn’t have a fit issue and you want to use the Trooper starter the years of applications are 86-91 Trooper 2.3 and 2.6 engines according to Denso, and Robert Bosch. Your OEM part number for Denso is 280-0198 and your OEM Bosch number is SR398X