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TR5/TR250 Triumph TR5
- Thread starter dlamb43
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TR6oldtimer
Darth Vader
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I don't believe the TR5 was imported for retail sales. The reason being the TR5 was fuel injected and did not meet US smog laws, and the TR250 which was made specifically for the US market had carburetors and did.
Some additional information here:
https://www.britishcarforum.com/tikiwiki/tiki-index.php?page=TR+5-TR+250#_History
Some additional information here:
https://www.britishcarforum.com/tikiwiki/tiki-index.php?page=TR+5-TR+250#_History
TR3driver
Great Pumpkin - R.I.P
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As Ray says, the TR5 was not legal in the US, for emissions reasons. The story I heard was that Triumph was originally assured that the Lucas fuel injection could meet US emissions standards, but when they built the car, it's tailpipe was too dirty. Lacking time and money for further development (which might never pan out); and knowing how to make the carbs pass emissions; they created the TR250 for the US market. The carb/PI dichotomy continued through the TR6, although they decided not to use a different model name after one year of the TR250.
In addition to the PI/carbs, the camshaft and compression were different. The TR250 also had a lot of extra trim and that strange stripe across the nose. But the TR250 is basically identical to the TR5.
There are a very few genuine TR5s in the US, though. I forget the name now, but there was an enterprising individual that was ordering them for delivery in another country, then disassembling them, shipping to the US as parts, and reassembling them here. As I recall, he went to prison for his efforts, but the authorities did not track down all the cars.
Charles Runyon, owner of TRF, has a genuine LHD TR5 (although I don't know how it came to the US).
Unfortunately, there are also numerous fakes; TR250s that have been converted to fuel injection (or in one case, just had the trim changed). Caveat Emptor.
In addition to the PI/carbs, the camshaft and compression were different. The TR250 also had a lot of extra trim and that strange stripe across the nose. But the TR250 is basically identical to the TR5.
There are a very few genuine TR5s in the US, though. I forget the name now, but there was an enterprising individual that was ordering them for delivery in another country, then disassembling them, shipping to the US as parts, and reassembling them here. As I recall, he went to prison for his efforts, but the authorities did not track down all the cars.
Charles Runyon, owner of TRF, has a genuine LHD TR5 (although I don't know how it came to the US).
Unfortunately, there are also numerous fakes; TR250s that have been converted to fuel injection (or in one case, just had the trim changed). Caveat Emptor.
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There have been musings over the years that the REAL reason the TR5 didn't make it in the US is that S-T feared the additional expense and complication of the injection might be beyond their dealers' ability to deal with same. I don't think there's any question that some version of the Lucas PI could have been made to meet Federal emissions standards, even if it meant some detuning. I seem to recall that the Type 3 VW Squarebacks and Fastbacks were running Bosch L-Jetronic fuel injection by 1968, for example.Twosheds said:
T
TRDejaVu
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I had one back in the late 70's in the olde country and I remember that it was great to drive, but the PI system (at least in my car) was a pig to keep in tune.
There is someone about 10 miles down the road from where we currently live in PA that imported a TR5 from Belgium a couple of years ago. There are only 2 cars that I want back, the TR5 and the Lotus Elan S4 Sprint; both sold to get something more reliable to get me to work and back.
There is someone about 10 miles down the road from where we currently live in PA that imported a TR5 from Belgium a couple of years ago. There are only 2 cars that I want back, the TR5 and the Lotus Elan S4 Sprint; both sold to get something more reliable to get me to work and back.
heliguy
Jedi Hopeful
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Although the Lucas PI system is not rocket science it does take special care, some special equipment and a good understanding of how the system works to get satisfactory results from it. One of its quirks is that to get the system to work properly under load and at speed is that it is going to run rich at idle. Could it have been detuned to pass emmissions? Im sure that it could have, but now you are dealing with a car that has the same performance as a carb car but with the added expense of using the PI system ( with its poorer mileage figures that go with it ) Will we ever know the "real reason?" At this point i dont think it matters, but it is a shame that whatever the reason is/was that the TR5/TR6PI cars were not imported to North America.
Mitch
owner of a TR250 PI ( Not a TR5 )
Mitch
owner of a TR250 PI ( Not a TR5 )
TR3driver
Great Pumpkin - R.I.P
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I'm inclined to agree that it could have been done (making the Lucas PI meet smog standards); but at what expense and additional complication ? Rich at idle is a strict no-no, so something would have to be added to lean the mixture at idle. If it runs rich at cruise as well (which would explain the poorer fuel mileage), that's also a problem.
VW/Bosch had fixes for those problems; there is actually a separate fuel pressure regulator that lowers fuel pressure when manifold vacuum is high.
As noted, performance wouldn't have been much better anyway, with the reduced compression and 'emissions' camshaft; so really no reason for the added expense and complexity/unreliability of the PI. I think there was also a general perception that the Americans must not be very interested in performance anyway, since they were piling on all those anti-performance laws. May have even been some truth to that, since the TR6 certainly sold well, in spite of being no faster than a TR3 (or a Mustang).
VW/Bosch had fixes for those problems; there is actually a separate fuel pressure regulator that lowers fuel pressure when manifold vacuum is high.
As noted, performance wouldn't have been much better anyway, with the reduced compression and 'emissions' camshaft; so really no reason for the added expense and complexity/unreliability of the PI. I think there was also a general perception that the Americans must not be very interested in performance anyway, since they were piling on all those anti-performance laws. May have even been some truth to that, since the TR6 certainly sold well, in spite of being no faster than a TR3 (or a Mustang).
Twosheds
Darth Vader
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This discussion reminded me of an article on fuel injection by Ron Wakefield that ran in the July 1968 issue of Road & Track, so I unearthed the issue. He discusses the VW-Bosch, Conelec, Tecalemit-Jackson, Triumph's Lucas Mk II, and AE Systems.
In the introductory paragraphs Wakefield says that car manufacturers are looking towards fuel injection as a way to meet the U.S. emission regulations. Then we come to the Triumph's Lucas Mk II Systems section:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]After I've spent paragraphs explaining why fuel injection is great for reducing exhaust emissions, here's a case where FI was left off cars bound for the U.S. For the 6-cyl, 2498-cc TR-5 sports car, Triumph chose to use the Lucas Mk II mechanical injection system.
...
But for the U.S. there is a TR-250, a carbureted model producing only 111 bhp@4500, which meets the emission standards. In this case I don't see any contradiction to the fact that injection can be used to meet the standards; rather, I think that Triumph found it more expedient with their particular engineering staff to tackle the emission problem with the more familiar carburation and postpone such work on the FI engine until later. I would guess that the TR-5 with FI will be available over here next year, meeting the standards and producing, say, 145 bhp or so.
[/QUOTE]
Interesting.
In the introductory paragraphs Wakefield says that car manufacturers are looking towards fuel injection as a way to meet the U.S. emission regulations. Then we come to the Triumph's Lucas Mk II Systems section:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:]After I've spent paragraphs explaining why fuel injection is great for reducing exhaust emissions, here's a case where FI was left off cars bound for the U.S. For the 6-cyl, 2498-cc TR-5 sports car, Triumph chose to use the Lucas Mk II mechanical injection system.
...
But for the U.S. there is a TR-250, a carbureted model producing only 111 bhp@4500, which meets the emission standards. In this case I don't see any contradiction to the fact that injection can be used to meet the standards; rather, I think that Triumph found it more expedient with their particular engineering staff to tackle the emission problem with the more familiar carburation and postpone such work on the FI engine until later. I would guess that the TR-5 with FI will be available over here next year, meeting the standards and producing, say, 145 bhp or so.
[/QUOTE]
Interesting.
V
vagt6
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My favorite Triumph model, the TR-5. I used to troll ebay UK frequently and saw one up for auction near London back in 2004. Can't remember the sale price, but I'm sure it wasn't cheap.
Never seen one over here, but would love to. 150 HP in a TR-5 would be a real scooter. I'd give my eye teeth to drive one.
Anyone have photos?
Never seen one over here, but would love to. 150 HP in a TR-5 would be a real scooter. I'd give my eye teeth to drive one.
Anyone have photos?
T
TRDejaVu
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Back in the day (late 70's); wife then girlfriend in car. I never did like the wheel trims and the front overriders were missing, but it came with 150HP (theoretically) instead of a stripe.
Appears to be parked next to a Mark 2 Cortina (had a 1600 version of that car once) and a Bedford (I think) van in the background.
Appears to be parked next to a Mark 2 Cortina (had a 1600 version of that car once) and a Bedford (I think) van in the background.
jessebogan
Jedi Knight
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The VWs had Bosch D jetronic, or "cave man" electronic injection. VW had a LOT more money to throw at development of an injected car than Triumph did. There was a "special" analyzer developed along with the injection, and it still gave dealers fits for a while. It is tough to help develop new tecnology!! The other thing that probably scared Triumph off of the injection system was the really high fuel pressures involved. Ol Ralph Nader had just skewered GM over the Corvair, and I bet the Triumph guys worried about product liability stuff, and possible fire threat in case of accident. Back in the 80s we had a "shop" TR6 that we fitted the PI to. It was great, fast as all get out, but it had a few issues. On long road trips (like Richmond to DC) on a 90 plus degree day, we had trouble with things like fuel pump overheating, to the point where the car would stop. Duct tape and a bag of ice, and we were off. Yee Ha!!
heliguy
Jedi Hopeful
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Duct tape and ice is a good solution, but frozen Green Giant fancy cut beans works even better ( get the 24 oz package, its the best! )
Lucas pumps were known for overheating, and there were a couple of fixes for that. One was running a cooling coil around the pump that used fuel as a heat exchanger but i think the best was just replacing the pump with a Bosch set up.
Lucas pumps were known for overheating, and there were a couple of fixes for that. One was running a cooling coil around the pump that used fuel as a heat exchanger but i think the best was just replacing the pump with a Bosch set up.